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‍Plato's Republic - Book 1 Part 3

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Socrates - CLEITOPHON - POLEMARCHUS - THRASYMACHUS

Aye, said Cleitophon, jumpin in, if ye are allooed tae be his witness.

But there's nae need o' ony witness, said Polemarchus, for Thrasymachus himsel acknowledges that rulers may sometimes command whit isnae for their ain interest, and that for subjects tae obey them is justice.

Aye, Polemarchus, --Thrasymachus said that for subjects tae dae whit wis commanded bi their rulers is juist.

Aye, Cleitophon, but he also said that justice is the interest o' the stronger, and, while admittin baith these propositions, he further acknowledged that the stronger may command the weaker wha are his subjects tae dae whit isnae for his ain interest; whence follows that justice is the skaith quite as much as the interest o' the stronger.

But, said Cleitophon, he meant bi the interest o' the stronger whit the stronger thocht tae be his interest, --this wis whit the weaker hid tae dae; and this wis affirmed bi him tae be justice.

Thon wisnae his words, rejoinet Polemarchus.

Socrates - THRASYMACHUS

Never mind, I replied, if he noo says that they are, lat's accept his statement. Tell me, Thrasymachus, I said, did ye mean bi justice whit the stronger thocht tae be his interest, whether really so or nae?

Certainly no, he said. Dae ye suppose that I ca' him wha is mistaken the stronger at the time whan he is mistaken?

Aye, I said, my impression wis that ye did so, whan ye admitted that the ruler wisnae infallible but micht be sometimes mistaken.

Ye argue like an informer, Socrates. Dae ye mean, for example, that he wha is mistaken aboot the sick is a physician in that he is mistaken? Or that he wha errs in arithmetic or grammar is an arithmetician or grammarian at the time whan he is makin the mistake, in respect o' the mistake? True, we say that the physician or arithmetician or grammarian has made a mistake, but this is only a wey o' speakin; for the fact is that neither the grammarian nor any ither person o' skill ever makes a mistake in so far as he is whit his name implies; they nane o' them err unless their skill fails them, and then they cease tae be skilled artists. Nae artist or sage or ruler errs at the time whan he is whit his name implies; though he is commonly said tae err, and I adoptit the common mode o' speakin. But tae be perfectly accurate, since you are sic a lover o' accuracy, we shuid say that the ruler, in so far as he is the ruler, is unerrin, and, bein unerrin, aye commands that which is for his ain interest; and the subject is required tae execute his commands; and therefore, as I said at first and noo repeat, justice is the interest o' the stronger.

Indeed, Thrasymachus, and dae I really appear tae ye tae argue like an informer?

Certainly, he replied.

An ye suppose that I ask these questions wi ony design o' injurin ye in the argument?

Naw, he replied, 'suppose' isnae the word --I ken it; but you will be fund oot, and bi sheer force o' argument you will never prevail.

I shall not mak the attempt, my dear man; but tae avoid ony misunderstanding occurrin atween us in future, lat me ask, in whit sense dae ye speak o' a ruler or stronger whose interest, as you were sayin, he bein the superior, it is juist that the inferior should execute --is he a ruler in the popular or in the strict sense o' the term?

In the strictest o' aw senses, he said. An noo cheat and play the informer if you can; I ask nae quarter at yer haunds. But you never will be able, never

An dae ye imagine, I said, that I am sic a daftie as tae try and cheat ye, Thrasymachus? I micht as weel try tae shave a lion.

Why, he said, you made the attempt a minute ago, and you failed.

Enough o' these pleasantries, I said. It will be better that I should ask ye a question: Is the physician, taen in that strict sense o' whilk ye are speakin, a healer o' the sick or a makker o' siller? An mind ye that I am noo speakin o' the true physician.

A healer o' the sick, he replied.

An the pilot --that is tae say, the true pilot --is he a captain o' sailors or a mair sailor?

A captain o' sailors.

The circumstance that he sails in the ship is not tae be taen intae accoont; neither is he tae be ca'd a sailor; the name pilot bi whilk he is distinguished has naething tae dae wi sailin, but is significant o' his skill and o' his authority ower the sailors.

Very true, he said.

Now, I said, every airt has an interest?

Certainly.

For whilk the airt has tae consider and provide?

Aye, that's the aim o' airt.

An the interest o' ony airt is the perfection o' it --this and naething else?

Whit dae ye mean?

I mean whit I may illustrate negatively bi the example o' the body. Suppose ye war tae ask me whether the body is self-sufficient or has wants, I sud reply: Certainly the body has wants; for the body may be ill and require tae be cured, and has therefore interests tae whilk the airt o' medicine ministers; and this is the origin and intention o' medicine, as ye will acknowledge. Am I no richt?

Quite richt, he replied.

But is the airt o' medicine or ony ither airt faulty or deficient in ony quality in the same wey that the ee may be deficient in sicht or the ear fail o' hearin, and therefore requires anither airt tae provide for the interests o' seein and hearin has airt in itsel, I say, ony similar liability tae fault or defect, and does every airt require anither supplementary airt tae provide for its interests, and that anither and anither withoot end? Or hae the airts tae leuk only efter their ain interests? Or hae they nae need either o' themsels or o' anither? havin nae faults or defects, they hae nae need tae correct them, either bi the exercise o' their ain airt or o' ony ither; they hae only tae consider the interest o' their subject-matter. For every airt remains pure and faultless while remainin true --that is tae say, while perfect and unimpaired. Tak the words in yer precise sense, and tell me whether I am no richt?"

Aye, clearly.

Then medicine does not consider the interest of medicine, but the interest of the body?

True, he said.

Nor dis the airt o' horsemanship consider the interests o' the airt o' horsemanship, but the interests o' the horse; neither dae ony ither airts caur for themsels, for they hae nae needs; they caur only for that which is the subject o' their airt?

True, he said.

But surely, Thrasymachus, the airts are the superiors and rulers o' their ain subjects?

Tae this he assentit wi a guid bit o' reluctance.

Then, I said, nae science or airt considers or enjoins the interest o' the stronger or superior, but only the interest o' the subject and weaker?

He made an attempt tae argue against this proposition an aw, but finally acceptit it.

Then, I continued, nae physician, in so far as he is a physician, considers his ain guid in whit he prescribes, but the guid o' his patient; for the true physician is also a ruler havin the human body as a subject, and isnae a mair money-maker; that has been admitted?

Aye.

An the pilot likewise, in the strict sense o' the term, is a ruler o' sailors and no a mair sailor?

That has been admitted.

An sic a pilot and ruler will provide and prescribe for the interest o' the sailor wha is unner him, and no for his ain or the ruler's interest?

He gae a reluctant 'Aye.'

Then, I said, Thrasymachus, there is nae yin in ony rule wha, in so far as he is a ruler, considers or enjoins whit is for his ain interest, but always whit is for the interest o' his subject or suitable tae his airt; tae that he luuks, and that alane he considers in everything which he says and dis.

When we hid gotten tae this pint in the argument, and every yin saw that the definition o' justice had been completely upsety, Thrasymachus, instead o' replyin tae me, said: Tell me, Socrates, hae ye got a nurse?

Why dae ye ask sic a question, I said, whan ye ocht rather tae be answerin?

Because she leaves ye tae snivel, and never wipes yer nose: she hasnae even taught ye tae ken the shepherd frae the sheep.

Whit maks ye say that? I replied.

Because ye fancy that the shepherd or neatherd fattens or tends the sheep or oxen wi a view tae their ain guid and no tae the guid o' himsel or his maister; and ye further imagine that the rulers o' states, if they are true rulers, never think o' their subjects as sheep, and that they arenae studyin their ain advantage day and nicht. Oh, nae; and sae entirely astray are ye in yer ideas aboot the just and unjust as no even tae ken that justice and the just are in reality anither's guid; that is tae say, the interest o' the ruler and stronger, and the loss o' the subject and servant; and injustice the opposite; for the unjust is lord ower the truly simple and just: he is the stronger, and his subjects dae whit is for his interest, and minister tae his happiness, which is very far frae bein their ain. Consider further, maist foolish Socrates, that the just is always a loser in comparison wi the unjust. First o' aw, in private contracts: wherever the unjust is the pairtner o' the just ye will find that, whan the pairtnership is dissolved, the unjust man has always mair and the just less. Secondly, in their dealings wi the State: whan there is an income tax, the just man will pey mair and the unjust less on the same amount o' income; and whan there is onything tae be received the yin gains naething and the ither much. Observe also whit happens whan they tak an office; there is the just man neglectin his affairs and perhaps sufferin ither losses, and gettin naething oot o' the public, because he is just; moreover he is hated bi his friends and acquaintances for refusin tae serve them in unlawful ways. But whit aboot the unjust man? It's a complete flip-side for him. Remember, I'm still speakin aboot injustice on a grand scale, whaur the benefits are mair obvious. This becomes clear as day if we look at the very waurst kind o' injustice, whaur the criminal is the happiest chiel ye could ever imagine, while the folk who suffer or refuse tae be unjust themsels are the maist miserable. This is what we see wi tyranny, whaur the ruler steals naething bit a hale wheen at ance, usin tricks and force tae tak the possessions o' ithers, no jist a wee bit at a time but the whole kit and caboodle. It disnae discriminate - it taks things that are holy and unholy, private an public thegither. If he wis caught doin ony o' these things on their ain, he'd be richtly punaished and shamed for it. Folk wha dae these wee crimes are kent as temple thieves, kidnappers, burglars, swindlers, and jist plain thieves. But whan a tyrant taks no jist the siller frae the fowk but turns them intae slaves on top o' that, then instead o' gettin these insults hurled at him, he's cried happy and blessed, no just by the fowk he's ruled ower but bi everyone wha hears aboot his complete and utter injustice. Maist fowk criticise injustice acause they're feart o' bein on the receivin end o' it, no because they widnae dae it themsels. An that's hoo, Socrates, as I've juist shown ye, on a big enough scale, injustice has mair strength, freedom, and power than justice. An as I said at the beginnin, justice is jist lookin efter the stronger fella's best interests, while injustice is aw aboot a man gettin as much for himsel as he can.

Thrasymachus, havin spoken in this wey, like a bathman wha had deluged oor lugs wi his claver, wis keen tae be off. But the company widnae let him gang; they insisted he bide and defend his grund. I masel added a wee bit mair tae their pleas and said he shouldnae leave us. "Thrasymachus," I says tae him, "ye seem a wise man, and yer observations are fair penetratin! Are ye gaun tae rin awa afore ye've properly taught or learned yersel whether they are true or no? Is decidin the richt wey tae live oor lives sic a wee thing in yer een? Surely we aw want tae ken hoo tae live in the best possible wey."

"Did I ever say it wisnae important?" he says.

"But Thrasymachus," I says back, "it seems ye dinnae fash yersel aboot whit happens tae us! Whether we live a better life or a waur life no kennin whit ye claim tae ken seems tae mak nae difference tae ye. Dinna be greedy wi yer knowledge, friend! We're a big group here, and any benefit ye gie us will surely be repaid handsomely. As for me, I'm no convinced by yer words, and I cannae believe that injustice is better than justice, even if it goes completely unchecked. Grantin that an unjust man can get away wi cheatin or forcin his will, it still disnae convince me that injustice is better overall. Maybe I'm wrang, and maybe some o' the others here feel the same wey. If that's the case, then surely it's yer duty, wi aw yer wisdom, tae show us the error o' oor wey and convince us that preferrin justice is actually daft."

"Weel then," says Thrasymachus, "if ye're no convinced by whit I've juist said, hoo am I supposed tae convince ye? Whit mair can I possibly dae for ye? Dae ye want me tae jist stuff the proof intae yer heids?"

"Och, for goodness sake!" says I. "A' I'm askin is that ye be consistent. If ye change yer mind, then at least be open aboot it! Dinnae try and trick us. Think back, Thrasymachus, tae whit we spoke aboot afore. Ye did a grand job definin a true physician, but whan ye talked aboot a shepherd, ye werenae nearly as careful. Ye seemed tae think a shepherd jist tends sheep so he can get a good meal oot o' them, like a diner or a fellae at a banquet. Or maybe ye thocht they were jist raised tae be selt in the market, like ony ither goods. But surely that's no the point o' bein a shepherd! A shepherd's job is aw aboot lookin efter his sheep - makin sure they're healthy and weel. That's the whole point o' the job! That's exactly whit I wis sayin afore aboot rulers. I thocht that a ruler, whether it be o' a whole country or jist a wee hoosehold, should always be focused on the weel-bein o' the folk they rule. But it seems ye think bein a ruler is jist aboot havin power for its ain sake."

"Think? I ken it for a fact!" says Thrasymachus.

"Then why," says I, "is it that wee jobs, the ones nae yin particularly wants, cannae be filled unless ye pay folk? Is it no because everyone kens these jobs are meant tae benefit ithers, no the person doin the job? Let me ask ye somethin else: Dinnae different professions aw hae different purposes? Come on, Thrasymachus, tell me whit ye think, so we can at least mak some progress here."

"Aye, that's the key difference," says Thrasymachus. "Ilka airt gie us a specific benefit, no jist a general yin (one). For example, physic keeps us healthy, and sailin keeps us safe at sea, and so on."

"Aye," he says.

"An the airt o' peyment has the special purpose o' givin pay. But we widnae say it's the same as ony ither airt, any mair than sailin is the same as physic, even though a journey by sea micht improve a pilot's health. Ye widnae say that sailin is the airt o' physic, would ye? At least, no if we're gonnae stick tae yer precise wey o' speakin."

"Absolutely no," says Thrasymachus.

"An jist because a fella is healthy when he gets paid, ye widnae say that gettin paid is the same as bein a doctor?"

"Nae, that wouldnae be richt."

"An ye widnae say that bein a doctor is the same as gettin paid jist because a doctor gets fees for curin folk?"

"Certainly not."

"An we agreed, says I, that the benefit o' each airt is specific tae that airt?"

"Aye, that's richt."

"Then, if there's ony benefit that aw the airts share, that maun come fae something they aw uise the same wey?"

"True enough," he says.

"An whan an artist benefits fae gettin paid, it's because o' an extra uise o' the airt o' peyment, no the airt they're actually trained in?"

He grudginly agreed wi this.

"Then the siller disnae come fae their ain airts, these artists. The truth is, while the doctor keeps folk healthy and the builder builds hooses, there's another airt that looks efter them - the airt o' peyment. The different airts can be daein their ain jobs and lookin efter whit they're meant tae, but wid an artist get any benefit fae their airt if they werenae paid as well?"

"Ach, I suppose no," says he.

"But dis that mean he disnae dae ony good whan he works for nothin?"

"Absolutely, he still does good."

"Then see here, Thrasymachus," says I, "there's nae doot noo that neither the airts nor the fowk in charge are there for their ain benefit. As we wis sayin afore, they rule and provide for the weel-bein o' their subjects, wha are the waker anes, no the stronger. It's for their good that they work, no for the benefit o' the better off."

"An that's the reason, Thrasymachus," I says, continuin on fae afore, "that nae yin wants the hassle o' bein in charge. Nae yin fancies takin on the job o' fixin problems that arenae their concern, and doin it for free. A true artist, whan they're daein their job and tellin others whit tae dae, disnae think aboot themsels but aways aboot the weel-bein o' the folk they're in charge o'. Sae, for fowk in charge tae be willin tae dae the job, they need tae be paid in yin o' three ways: siller, honour, or gettin punished if they refuse."

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