Book 3 Part 3

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Socrates - Glaucon (cont)

They were clever fellas, thir sons o' Asclepius.

Naturally sae, I replied. But whit wey, the playwrights and Pindar, gaun against oor orders, even though they ken Asclepius wis the son o' Apollo, say aa the same that he wis bribed intae curin' a rich man wha wis on the point o' deein', and for that reason he wis struck bi lichtnin'. But us, in line wi' the principle we've already agreed on, winnae believe them whan they tell us baith things; if he wis the son o' a god, we say he wisnae greedy; or, if he wis greedy then he wisnae the son o' a god.

That wis aw excellent, Socrates, but I wid like tae ask ye a question: Shouldnae there no be guid doctors in a state, and arenae the best doctors the anes wha hae treated the maist bodies, baith healthy and unhealthy? And arenae the best judges in the same wey the anes wha are familiar wi' aw sorts o' different personalities?

Aye, I said, I wid like guid judges and guid doctors an aw. But dae ye ken wha I think are the guid anes?

Will ye tell me?

I will, if I can. But gie me a wee minute here tae notice that in that same question ye've stuck twa things thegither that arenae the same.

How's that? he asked.

Weel, I said, ye've put doctors and judges thegither. Noo the best doctors are the anes wha, frae bein' young lads, hae combined learnin' aboot their airt wi' the maist experience o' sickness; it wid be better if they werenae in the best o' health themsels, and shoud hae had aa sorts o' diseases themsels. For the body, as I see it, isnae the tool wi' which they cure ither bodies; if it wis, then we couldnae let them ever be sickly or hae been sickly. But they cure the body wi' their mind, and a mind that's become sick and is sick cannae cure onything.

That's absolutely true, he said.

But it's different wi' a judge; since he rules mind wi' mind; he therefore shouldnae hae been trained amang wicked minds, and been kennin' them frae bein' a young lad, and gaun through the hale list o' crimes, juist so he can quickly figure oot the crimes o' ithers like he micht ken their bodily diseases frae his ain experience; an honourable mind that's meant tae mak healthy judgements shouldnae hae had ony experience or contamination o' bad habits when young. An this is the reason why young men wha are guid folk often appear tae be a wee bit simple, and are easily tricked bi dishonest fowk, because they dinnae hae ony examples o' whit evil is in their ain souls.

Aye, he said, they are far too easy tae be fooled.

Therefore, I said, a judge shouldnae be young; he should hae learned tae ken evil, no frae his ain soul, but frae seein' the evil in ithers for a lang time efter he's grown up: knowledge should be his guide, no his ain personal experience.

Aye, he said, that's the ideal judge.

Aye, I replied, and he'll be a guid man (whilk is my answer tae yer question); for he's guid wha has a guid soul. But the cunning and suspicious kind o' fella we were speakin' aboot, the one wha's committed a lot o' crimes, and thinks himsel' a master o' wickedness, whan he's amang his chums, is amazing in the precautions he takes, because he judges them bi himsel: but whan he gets intae the company o' men o' virtue, wha hae the experience o' age, he appears tae be a daftie again, acause o' his oot-o-place suspicions; he cannae recognise an honest man, because he has nae pattern o' honesty in himsel; at the same time, as bad fowk are mair numerous than the good anes, and he meets them mair often, he thinks himsel, and is thocht bi ithers tae be, mair wise than foolish.

Absolutely true, he said.

Then the good and wise judge we're lookin' for isnae this fella, but the other one; for wickedness cannae ken virtue an aw, but a virtuous nature, trained by time, will get knowledge o' baith virtue and vice: it's the virtuous man, no the wicked yin, who has wisdom -- in my opinion.

And in mine too.

This is the kind o' medicine, and this is the kind o' law, that ye approve o' in yer state. They'll look after better natures, giein' health tae baith body and soul; but those wha are ill in their bodies they'll leave tae die, and the twisted and incurable souls they'll pit oot o' their misery.

That's clearly the best thing for baith the patients and the state.

An so oor young fowk, haein' only been educated in that simple music that, as we said, encourages temperance, will be disinclined tae go to court.

Clearly.

And the musician, wha sticks tae the same path, bein' happy tae practice the simple exercises, will have nothin' tae dae wi' medicine unless it's a really serious case.

That I believe completely.

The very exercises and routines that he goes through are meant tae stimulate the courageous part o' his nature, an no tae mak him any stronger; he willnae, like common athletes, uise exercise and diet plans tae bulk up his muscles.

Absolutely right, he said.

Neither are the twa airts o' music and exercise really designed, as is often said, the one for trainin' the soul, the ither for trainin' the body.

What then is the real aim o' them?

I believe, I said, that the teachers o' both are mainly lookin' tae improve the soul.

How can that be? he asked.

Did ye never notice, I said, whit effect it has on the mind itsel' tae be completely devoted tae exercise, or the opposite effect o' giein' yersel' ower completely tae music?

In whit way dae ye mean? he said.

Weel, the first yin maks ye harsh and fierce, the other yin maks ye saft and womanly, I replied.

Aye, he said, I ken fine that a pure athlete becomes ower much o' a savage, and that the pure musician is softened and made waur than is guid for him.

Yet surely, I said, this fierceness only comes frae the courageous part o' a person, whilk, if trained properly, wid gie courage, but, if it's ower-developed, it can easily turn intae something harsh and brutal.

I definitely think that's true.

On the ither haund, a philosopher will hae the quality o' gentleness. An this an aw, whan it's ower-indulged, will turn intae softness, but, if it's trained properly, it'll be gentle and moderate.

True.

An in oor view the guardians should hae baith o' these qualities?

Absolutely.

An baith o' them should be in harmony?

There's nae doot aboot that.

An the harmonious soul is baith temperate and courageous?

Aye.

An the inharmonious yin is cowardly and boorish?

Absolutely true.

An, whan a man alloues music tae influence him and tae pour intae his soul through the funnel o' his lugs thir sweet and saft and melancholy tunes that we were juist speakin' aboot a minute syne, and his hale life is spent singin' and enjoyin' sangs; in the first stage o' this process the passion or courage that's in him is tempered like iron, and made useful, instead o' bein' brittle and useless. But, if he keeps gaun oan wi' this softenin' and soothin' process, in the next stage he begins tae melt and waste away, until he has wasted away his courage and cut oot the sinews o' his soul; and he becomes a feeble warrior.

Very true.

If the courageous part o' him is naturally weak then the change is quickly done, but if he has a lot o' it, then the power o' music weakenin' his courage makes him easily riled up; at the slightest provocation he flames up at ance, and is quickly extinguished; instead o' havin' courage he grows irritable and passionate and is completely impossible tae deal wi'.

Exactly.

An so in exercises, if a man gaes in for strenuous workouts and is a big eater, and steers clear o' learnin' music and philosophy, at first bein' in top physical condition fills him wi' pride and courage, and he becomes twice the man he wis.

Certainly.

But whit happens? If he disnae dae onything else, and has nae discussions wi' the Muses, disnae even gie a wee bit o' his time tae any kind o' learnin' or inquiry or thinkin' or bein' cultured, disnae that spark o' intelligence he micht hae in him grow feeble and dull and blind, his mind niver waukin' up or bein' fed, and his senses no bein' cleared o' their fog?

True, he said.

An he ends up hatin' philosophy, uncivilised, niver usin' persuasion tae get his way - he's like a wild beast, aw violence and fierceness, and kens nae ither way o' dealin' wi' things; and he lives in complete ignorance and awfulness, and has nae concept o' what's richt and proper or graceful.

That's absolutely true, he said.

An since there are twa core principles in human nature, ane the courageous and the ither the philosophical, some God, as I wid say, has gien mankind twa airts that correspond tae them (and anerly indirectly tae the soul and body), sae that these twa principles (like the strings o' an instrument) can be loosened or tightened up until they're properly harmonised.

That seems tae be the idea.

An the one wha mixes music wi' exercises in the fairest proportions, and best tempers them tae the soul, can be properly cried the true musician and harmoniser in a far far bigger wey than someone wha jist tunes the strings o' a lute.

Ye're absolutely right, Socrates.

An sic a leader will always be needed in oor state if the government is tae last.

Aye, he'll be absolutely essential.

Sae that's oor basic principles o' upbringing and education: What would be the point o' gaun intae mair detail aboot the dances o' oor fowk, or aboot their huntin' and chasin' after beasties, their exercises and horse-ridin' competitions? For aw o' these things follow the general principle, and havin' foond that, we'll hae nae bother discoverin' them.

I wid say that there'll be nae bother.

Very good, I said; then what's the next question? Dinnae we need tae ask wha are tae be the rulers and wha are tae be the subjects?

Certainly.

There can be nae doot that the aulder fowk hae tae rule the younger anes.

Clearly.

An that the best o' thir aulder fowk hae tae be in charge.

That's clear an aw.

Noo, arenae the best farmers the anes wha are maist devotit tae farmin'?

Aye.

An since we're gaun tae hae the best guardians for oor city, hinnae they got tae be the anes wha maist embody the qualities o' guardians?

Aye.

An tae achieve this, they wid need tae be wise and efficient, and hae a special interest in the state?

True.

An a man will be maist likely tae care aboot that which he loves?

For sure.

An he'll be maist likely tae love that which he thinks o' as havin' the same interests as himsel, and that o' which the good or bad fortune is thocht bi him at any time tae affect his ain the maist?

Absolutely true, he replied.

Then there maun be a selection process. Let's keep an eye on the guardians amang us wha, throuoot their hale lives, show the maist eagerness tae dae whit's best for the kintra, and the maist disgust for onything that gangs against its interests.

Thae are the richt fowk for the job.

An we'll need tae watch them at every stage o' their lives, juist tae mak sure they stick tae their principles, and nivir, whether throu force or some kind o' trickery, forget or cast oaf their sense o' duty tae the state.

Hoo dae ye mean cast it aff? he said.

I'll explain it tae ye, I replied. A resolve can leave a man's mind either on purpose or no on purpose; on purpose whan he gets shot o' a falsehood and learns something better, no on purpose whan he's robbed o' something true.

I understand, he said, whit it means tae lose a resolve on purpose; whit it means tae lose it no on purpose is somethin' I've still tae learn aboot.

Weel, I said, dinnae ye see that fowk are no wantin' tae be robbed o' somethin' guid, but are happy tae get shot o' somethin' bad? Isnae it a bad thing tae hae lost the truth, and a guid thing tae possess it? An ye wid agree that seein' things as they truly are is haein' the truth?

Aye, he replied; I agree wi' ye that fowk are robbed o' the truth against their will.

An isnae this involuntary loss caused either bi bein' robbed, forced, or tricked?

I still dinnae understand ye, he replied.

I wid say I must hae been speakin' in riddles, like the playwrights. I juist mean that some fowk are changed bi bein' persuaded and ithers forget; arguments can steal away the hearts o' some, and time can steal it away frae ithers; an this is whit I cry bein' robbed. Noo dae ye understand me?

Aye.

Thir fowk again that are forced are the anes wha are compelled tae change their minds bi the harshness o' pain or grief.

I understand, he said, and ye're absolutely right.

An ye wid aa acknowledge that the enchanted are the anes wha change their minds either unner the softer influence o' pleasure, or the sterner influence o' fear?

Aye, he said; onything that tricks ye can be said tae enchant ye.

Therefore, as I wis juist sayin' a wee while syne, we need tae investigate wha are the best guardians o' their ain beliefs aboot whit serves the State best as a guide for their lives. We need tae watch them frae bein' young lads, and gar them dae things whaur they're maist likely tae forget or be fooled, and the one wha remembers and disnae get fooled is tae be picked, and the one wha fails the test is tae be rejected. That wid be the wey tae dae it?

Aye.

An there should also be trials set for them that involve hardship, pain and clashes, whaur they'll be made tae prove these same qualities again.

Absolutely right, he replied.

An then, I said, we must test them wi' temptations - that's the third kind o' trial - and see hoo they behave: juist like folk wha tak foals amang noise and chaos tae see if they're easily scared, we maun tak oor young men amang frights o' some kind, and then put them intae pleasures again, and test them mair thoroughly than goud is tested in a furnace, sae that we can discover whit their mettle is like against aw sorts o' temptations, and see if they can aye carry themsels wi' dignity, bein' guid guardians o' themsels and o' the music they've learned, and aye haein' a rhythmic and harmonious nature, the kind that'll be maist beneficial tae themsels and tae the state. An the one wha, at every stage o' life, as a boy, a young man and a grown man, has come oot o' the trial victorious and pure, shall be made a leader and guardian o' the state; he shall be honoured in life and daith, and shall receive burial and ither memorials o' honour, the greatest that we hae tae gie. But onyone wha fails, we maun reject. I'm inclined tae think that this is the kind o' wey oor leaders and guardians should be chosen and appointed. I speak generally, and no wi' any pretence o' bein' absolutely exact.

An, speakin' generally, I agree wi' ye, he said.

An perhaps the word 'guardian' in the fullest sense should only be applied tae this upper class wha defend us against foreign enemies and keep the peace amang oor fowk at hame, sae that the enemies mightnae want tae hurt us, nor oor ain fowk hae the ability. The young men wha we previously cried guardians can be better described as helpers and supporters o' the rulers' principles.

I agree wi' ye, he said.

Hoo then can we come up wi' one o' those necessary wee fibs that we were speakin' aboot a wee while syne - jist one royal whopper tae trick the rulers, if that's possible, and at least the rest o' the city?

Whit kind o' whopper are ye talkin' aboot? he said.

Naethin' new, I replied; juist an auld Phoenician story aboot somethin' that's happened a lot o' times afore in ither places, (as the poets say, and hae made the hale world believe,) though no in oor time, and I dinnae ken if sic a thing could ever happen again, or even be made believable if it did.

Hoo yer words seem tae be stickin' in yer throat!

Ye winnae wonder, I replied, at my hesitation ance ye've heard it.

Speak, he said, and dinnae be feart.

Weel then, I'll speak, although I really dinnae ken hoo tae look ye in the face, or whit words tae use tae tell ye this audacious fib that I'm thinkin' o' tellin' wee by wee, first tae the rulers, then tae the sodjers, and last o' a' tae the common fowk. They're tae be telt that their youth wis a dream, and the education and trainin' that they got frae us wis jist somethin' that seemed real; in truth, aw that time they wur bein' formit and fed inside the womb o' the earth, whaur they themsels and their weapons and aw their gear wis bein' made; whan they were finished, the earth, their mither, sent them up; an so, their kintra bein' their mither and an aw their nurse, they are obligated tae advise for her wellbein, and tae defend her against attacks, and they are tae consider the ither citizens tae be bairns o' the earth and their ain brithers.

Ye hid a richt guid reason tae be ashamed o' the lie ye wur gaun tae tell, he said.

True enough, I answered, but there's mair tae come; I've only telt ye half o' it. We'll say tae the fowk in oor story, "Citizens, ye are a' brithers, yet God has made ye different. Some o' ye hae the power tae gie orders, and whan he made them he mixed in some gold, whilk is why they hae the maist honour; but in the helpers he mixed in silver, and for the farmers and ither tradesmen he used iron and brass. And since ye are all related, although maistly ye'll produce bairns o' the same kind as yersels, it can sometimes happen that a father who's golden might hae a son who's silver, and a golden bairn micht come fae a silver da, and aw the rest o' ye micht be born o' each ither in the same wey. Sae, the first and main order that the god lays upon the rulers is that they maun be especially careful guardians and observers o' nothin' else than hoo these metals are mixed in the souls o' their childer. If sons are born tae them wi' a mix o' brass or iron, they shouldnae gie in tae pity whan decidin' whit tae dae wi' them, but allou each ane tae hae the status that their nature deserves, and shove them oot amang the craftsfolk or the farmers. An on the flip side, if a son is born amang these fowk and he unexpectedly has gold or silver in his makeup, they should gie honour tae sic a bairn and mak him move up higher, some tae become a guardian and some tae assist the guardians. They can claim there's an oracle that says the state will crumble if a man o' iron or brass is its guardian. Do ye think there's any wey o' gettin' them tae believe this story?" "No, not the leaders themsels," he said, "but maybe their sons and successors and the rest o' humanity that comes after them." "Weel," I said, "even that would be a guid thing, makin' them mair inclined tae care for the state and ilk ither. For I think I understand whit ye mean." And this will happen as tradition guides it.

"Let's gie these sons o' the earth weapons and put them unner the command o' their leaders. And ance they've arrived at the city, they need tae find the best place tae set up camp, a spot that would be easiest tae defend against rebellions that break the laws or ony invaders frae ootwith, like a sheepfold against a wolf. An efter they've set up camp and made sacrifices tae the richt gods, they need tae build their dens, wouldn't ye say?" "Aye," he said. "An these dens need tae be built in a wey that keeps them warm in winter and cool enough in summer?" "Absolutely. Because I presume ye're speakin' aboot their houses." "Aye," I said, "the hooses o' soldiers, no o' businessmen."  

"What's the difference between the twa?" he said. "I'll try and explain it tae ye," I said. "It wid be the maist monstrous and shameful thing in the world for shepherds tae raise their sheepdogs in sic a wey, or allou them tae become sic creatures, that due tae lack o' discipline or hunger or some ither ill circumstance, the dogs themselves wad turn on the sheep and hurt them, basically becoming wolves instead o' helpful dogs." "A terrible thing, indeed," he said. 

"Then dinnae we need tae dae everything we can tae stop oor helpers frae treatin' the citizens that wey? We cannae let them use their strength tae turn themsels frae bein' helpful assistants intae savage rulers?" "We cannae," he said. "An widnae the best protection against that be a guid education?" "They've definitely had a guid education," he said.

"That," I said, "dear Glaucon, we cannae properly say for certain," but what we were juist sayin' we can say that they need tae hae the richt education, whatever it is, if they are tae learn whit will best help them be gentle tae each ither and tae their citizens." "That's true," he said. "On top o' an education like that, a thoughtful man wid aa say that their hooses and the things they're given shouldnae get in the wey o' them doin' their job as guardians properly, and shouldnae tempt them tae dae wrang things tae the ither fowk in the city." 

"He wid be absolutely richt tae say that." "Think then," I said, "if that's whit we want them tae be like, how their hoames and their way o' life should be set up. First o' aw, nane o' them should hae any private stuff [property] except for the bare essentials. Second, nane o' them should hae a hoose or a treasure chest that ither fowk cannae gang intae whenever they want. Their food, they should get it in quantities that are richt for soldiers wha are warlikely and sober athletes - a set amount agreed upon as payment for their guard duties frae the ither citizens, measured oot sae that there's nae extra left ower at the end o' the year, nor ony lack. An they should live thegither, eatin' at a common table like sodjers on a campaign."

"Gowd and siller," we'll tell them, "they hae a bit o' the divine quality frae the gods aye present in their souls, and they hivnae wee need o' the metal that men use. Holiness disnae alloo them tae mix and contaminate that gift frae the heavens wi' the pursuit o' mortal gowd. Efter aw, mony an ungodly deed has been done ower the coins o' the commoners, while whit resides within them is untainted. But for thir fowk only, oot o' aw the fowk in the city, it's no permittit tae handle gowd and siller or touch them, nor yet tae bide unner the same roof wi' them, nor tae wear them as ornaments on their bodies or drink oot o' silver and gowd cups. Livin' this wey, they wid save themsels and save their city.  But whit wey if ever they war tae get their ain land and hooses and siller? They wid become hooseholders and farmers instead o' guardians, and wid be transformed frae bein' helpers o' their fellow citizens intae their enemies and maisters. An sae, havin' hate for them and bein' hated back, plottin' against them and bein' plotted against, they wid spend their days far mair feart o' the fowk in the toon than the enemies ootwith - and even then, they wid be settin' a course for disaster for themsels and the state. For aw these reasons," I said, "let's declare that this is whit we should provide for oor guardians in terms o' accommodation and ither things, and mak it law. Shall we no?" "Absolutely," said Glaucon.

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