Book 4, Part 2

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Socrates - GLAUCON

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"Nae sense!" says Glaucon, "didnae ye promise tae leuk yersel, sayin' that for ye no tae help justice when it needs it wid be wickedness?"

"I dinnae deny that I said that," says I, "an' as ye mind me o' it, I'll keep ma word; but ye need tae jyne in."

"We will," says he.

"Weel then," says I, "I hiv a hope o' discoverin' it this wey: I mean tae begin bi takkin' it for granted that oor state, if it's run properly, is perfect."

"That's absolutely certain."

"An' bein' perfect, it maun be wise an' braw an' temperate an' just."

"That's clear an aw."

"An' whichever o' thir qualities we find in the state, the yin that's no there will be whit's left ower?"

"Very guid."

"If there wis fower things, an' we wis lookin' for yin o' them, whitsoever it micht be, the yin we war lookin' for micht be kent tae us fae the start, an' there wid be nae mair fash; or we micht ken the ither three first, an' then the fowerth wid clearly be the yin that's left."

"Very true," says he.

"An' isnae a similar method tae be followed aboot the virtues, whilk are an aa fower in nummer?"

"Clear enough.

First amang the virtues we foond in the state, wisdom comes intae sicht, an' whan I look at it there's something a wee bit strange aboot it."

"Whit's that?" says he.

"The state we've been describin' is said tae be wise acause it's guid at makin' plans?"

"Absolutely true."

"An' makin' guid plans is clearly a kind o' knowledge, for it's no throu ignorance, but throu knowledge, that fowk mak guid plans?"

"Clear enough."

"An' the kinds o' knowledge in a state are mony an' different?"

"Och aye."

"There's the knowledge o' the carpenter; but is that the sort o' knowledge that maks a city kent for bein' wise an' guid at makin' plans?"

"Nae chance; that wid only gie a city a reputation for bein' braw at carpentry."

"Then a city isnae tae be called wise juist acause it kens hoo tae mak the best oot o' widden tools?"

"Certainly no."

"Nor acause it kens hoo tae make the best brass pots, I said, nor ony ither similar knowledge?"

"No, nae for ony o' them," says he.

"Nor yet acause it kens hoo tae grow crops; that wid gie the city the name o' bein' guid at farmin'?"

"Aye."

"Weel then," says I, "is there ony knowledge in oor recently foondit state amang ony o' the citizens that disnae advise aboot ony specific thing in the state, but instead thinks aboot the hail thing, an' considers hoo a state can best deal wi' itsel an' wi' ither states?"

"There certainly is."

"An' whit is that knowledge, an' whaur is it foond?" I asks.

"It's the knowledge o' the guardians," he says, "an' it's foond amang thae fowk we wis juist describin' as the perfect guardians."

"An' whit name does the city get acause it has this kind o' knowledge?"

"The name o' bein' guid at makin' plans an' truly wise."

"An' will there be mair o' thir true guardians or mair blacksmiths in oor city?"

"The blacksmiths," says he, "will be fower times as numerous."

"Winnae the guardians be the smawest o' aw the classes that get a name fae practicin' some kind o' knowledge?"

"Aye, much the smawest."

"An' sae bi raison o' the smawest pairt or class, an' o' the knowledge that sits in this presidin' an' rulin' pairt o' itsel, the hail state, bein' set up this wey bi nature, will be wise; an' this, whilk has the only knowledge that deserves tae be called wisdom, has been ordaned by nature tae be the smawest o' aw the classes."

"Absolutely true."

"Thus, then," says I, "the nature an' place in the State o' yin o' the fower virtues has somehow or ither been discovered."

"An', in my mind, very satisfactorily discovered," he says.

"Again," says I, "there's nae bother seein' the nature o' courage; an' in whit pairt that quality sits that maks the state courageous."

"Hoo dae ye mean?" says he.

"Weel," says I, "anybody that calls ony state courageous or cowardly, will be thinkin' o' the pairt that fechts an' gangs oot tae war on the state's behalf."

"Nae yin," he says, "wid ever think o' ony ither pairt."

"Certainly no."

"The rest o' the citizens micht be courageous or micht be cowardly, but their courage or cowardice winnae, as I see it, hae the effect o' makin' the city either the yin or the ither."

"The city will be courageous acause o' a wee bit o' itsel that keeps haudin' on, no matter whit, tae that thocht aboot whit things are tae be feared an' whit are no, that oor lawgiver learned them throu eddication; an' this is whit ye ca' courage.

I wid like tae hear whit ye're sayin' yin mair time, for I dinnae think I completely understand ye."

"I mean that courage is a kind o' keepin' safe."

"Keepin' safe whit?"

"The thocht aboot whit things are tae be feared, whit they are an' whit kind o' thing they are, that the law pits in their heids throu eddication; an' whan I say 'no matter whit', I mean that whether it's pleasure or pain, or unner the influence o' wantin' something or bein' scared, a fella keeps haudin' on tae this thocht an' disnae lose it. Shall I gie ye an example?"

"If ye wid like."

"Ye ken," says I, "that dyers, whan they want tae dye wul tae mak the true sea-purple, start bi pickin' a white colour first; this they mak up an' prepare wi' a lot o' care an' fash, sae that the white base can tak the purple colour perfectly. Then the dyin' happens; an' whit gets dyed this wey turns a braw colour that lasts, an' nae amount o' weshin', wi' lye or withoot it, can tak the shine aff it. But whan the base hasnae been properly prepared, ye'll hae noticed hoo shoogly an' daft-lookin' the purple or ony ither colour is."

"Aye," says he, "I ken that; it looks a wee bit wushed-oot an' ridiculous."

"Then noo," says I, "ye'll understand whit oor aim wis in pickin' oor sodgers, an' eddicatin' them in music an' PE; we wis creatin' influences that wid prepare them tae tak the dye o' the laws perfectly, an' the colour o' their opinion aboot dangers an' every ither opinion wis tae be stuck fast bi their upbringing an' trainin', no tae be washed away bi sic strong lyes as pleasure - a far stronger thing for weshin' the soul than ony soda or lye; or bi sadness, fear, an' wantin' something, the strongest o' aw solvents. An' this kind o' universal savin' power o' true opinion, gaun alang wi' the law aboot real an' fake dangers, I ca' an' declare tae be courage, unless ye disagree."

"But I agree," he says; "for I assume ye mean tae exclude pure, untaught courage, like that o' a wild beast or a slave - this, in yer opinion, isnae the courage that the law wants, an' it should hae a different name."

"Absolutely true."

"Then can I assume that courage is whit ye describe?"

"Aye, ye can," says I, "an' if ye add the words 'o' a citizen,' ye winnae be far wrang; - efter this, if ye like, we can tak the examination further, but jist noo we're juist lookin' for justice, no courage; an' for oor enquiry we've said enough."

"Ye're richt," says he.

"Twa virtues are still tae be discovered in the state - first temperance, an' then justice which is the hail point o' oor search."

"Very true."

"Noo, can we find justice withoot fashin' oorsels aboot temperance?"

"I dinnae ken hoo that can be done," says he, "nor dae I want justice tae be foond an' temperance forgotten; an' therefore I wid like ye tae dae me a favour an' consider temperance first."

"Certainly," says I, "I widnae be richt tae refuse yer request."

"Then consider," says he.

"Aye," says I, "I will; an' as far as I can see jist noo, the virtue o' temperance seems tae be mair like harmony an' a wheen things bein' played thegither richt than the previous yin."

"Hoo come?" he asks.

"Temperance," says I, "is the orderin' or controllin' o' certain pleasures an' desires; this is screaminly implied in the sayin' o' 'a man bein' his ain master' an' ye can find ither wee bits o' the same idea in the wey we speak."

"Och aye," says he.

"But there's something daft aboot the expression 'master o' himsel'; for the master is an aa the servant an' the servant the master; an' in aw these ways o' speakin' the same person is bein' talked aboot."

"Absolutely true.

The meanin' is, I believe, that in the human soul there's a better an' aw a waur principle; an' whan the better one controls the waur yin, then a fella is said tae be master o' himsel; an' this is a braw way o' describin' it: but whan, acause o' bad upbringin' or bad company, the better principle, whilk is an aa the smaller yin, is owerpowered bi the greater whecht o' the waur yin - in this case he's blamed an' is called a slave tae himsel an' withoot principles.

Aye, that maks sense.

An' noo," says I, "look at oor newly made state, an' there ye'll see yin o' thir twa things happenin'; for the state, as ye'll agree, can be fairly called master o' itsel, if the words 'temperance' an' 'master o' yersel' really mean that the better pairt rules the waur yin."

"Aye," says he, "I see that whit ye say is true."

"Let me further note that the mony an' complicated pleasures an' desires an' pains are generally foond in weans, wimmin an' servants, an' in the supposedly free fowk that are the lowest an' maist numerous class."

"Certainly," says he.

"Whereas the simple an' moderate desires that follow reason, an' are unner the guidance o' the mind an' true thocht, are only tae be foond in a wheen fowk, an' those the best born an' best eddicated."

"Very true. Thir twa, as ye micht see, hae a place in oor state; an' the meaner desires o' the mony are held doon bi the virtuous desires an' wisdom o' the few."

"That I see," says he.

"Then if there be ony city that can be described as master o' its ain pleasures an' desires, an' master o' itsel, oor state can claim sic a name?"

"Certainly," says he.

"It can an aa be called temperate, an' for the same reasons?"

"Aye."

"An' if there be ony state in whilk rulers an' subjects will agree on wha should rule, that again will be oor state?"

"Absolutely.

An' wi' the citizens bein' agreed amang theirsels, in whilk class will temperance be foond - in the rulers or the subjects?"

"In baith o' them, as I wid imagine," says he.

"Dae ye notice that we wisnae far wrang in oor guess that temperance wis a kind o' harmony?"

"Why's that?" says he.

"Weel," says I, "because temperance is different frae courage an' wisdom, each o' whilk juist sits in yin pairt, the yin makin' the state wise an' the ither brave; no sae temperance, that applies tae the hail thing, an' goes richt through aw the notes o' the scale, an' maks a harmony o' the weaker an' the stronger an' the middle class, whether ye think o' them as bein' stronger or weaker in wisdom or power or numbers or wealth, or onything else. Maist truthfully then can we consider temperance tae be the agreement o' the naturally superior an' inferior, as tae wha has the richt tae rule, baith in states an' individuals."

"I agree wi' ye completely."

"An' sae," says I, "we can consider three oot o' the fower virtues tae hae been discovered in oor state. The last o' thae qualities that mak a state virtuous maun be justice, if we only kent whit that wis."

"The answer is clear."

"Then the time has come, Glaucon," says I, "whin, like fowk huntin', we should surround the widden area, an' keep a sharp eye oot that justice disnae sneak awa, an' disappear an' escape us; for withoot a doubt she's somewhere in this kintra: so watch an' try tae catch a glimpse o' her, an' if ye see her first, let me ken."

"Wid that I could! but ye should think o' me mair as a follower that juist has enough sicht tae see whit ye show him - that's aboot as much as I'm guid for."

"Offer a wee prayer wi' me an' follow."

"I will, but ye maun show me the wey."

"There's nae path," says I, "an' the wids is mirk an' confusin'; still we maun pish on."

"Let's pish on.

Here I see something! Halloo!" says I, "I begin tae see a wee track, an' I believe that the beast we're huntin' winnae escape."

"Guid news," he says.

"Truly," says I, "we are some dafties! Why's that?"

"Weel," says I, "ma guid sir, at the beginnin' o' oor questionin', ages syne, there wis justice hingin' right by oor feet, an' we never saw her; naething could be mair ridiculous. Like fowk wha gang aboot lookin' for whit they hae in their haunds - that wis the wey wi' us - we lookit no at whit we were seekin', but at whit wis far awa in the distance; an' therefore, I suppose, we missed her."

"What dae ye mean?" says he.

"I mean tae say that in reality for a lang time past we've been talkin' aboot justice, an' hae nae managed tae recognise her."

"I'm gettin' impatient wi' hoo lang ye're takin' tae get tae the point!" says he.

"Weel then," says I, "tell me if I'm richt or no: You mind the main idea that we were always puttin' doon at the foondation o' the State, that yin fella should practise only yin thing, the thing that his nature is best suited for; - noo justice is this principle or a bit o' it."

"Aye, we said that a lot, that yin fella should only dae yin thing."

"Further," says I, "we said that justice wis doin' yer ain wark, an' no stickin' yer neb in ither fowk's business; we said that ower an' ower again, an' mony ithers hae said the same tae us."

"Aye, we said that."

"Then doin' yer ain wark in a certain wey can be thocht o' as justice. Can ye tell me whaur I get this idea?"

"I cannae, but I wid like tae be telt."

"Because I think that this is the only virtue that remains in the State whan the ither virtues o' temperance an' courage an' wisdom are taken awa; an' that this is the main reason an' condition o' aw o' them bein' there, an' while it stays in them it keeps them bein' whit they are; an' we were sayin' that if the three were discovered bi us, justice would be the fowerth or the yin that's left."

"That follaes bi necessity.

If we're speirt tae decide which o' thir fower qualities, bi bein' there, helps the state tae be mair excellent - whether it's the agreement atween rulers an' subjects, or the sodjers haudin' on tae the thocht that the law tells them aboot the true nature o' dangers, or the rulers bein' wise an' keepin' a close watch, or this ither thing I'm mentionin', that can be foond in weans an' wimmin, slaves an' free fowk, tradesmen, rulers an' subjects - the quality, I mean, o' every single yin daein' their ain wark, an' no stickin' their neb in ither fowk's business - decidin' which o' thir is best widnae be an easy question tae answer."

"Certainly," says he, "it wid be hard tae say."

"Then the ability o' each individual in the state tae dae their ain wark seems tae be competin' wi' the ither important qualities o' a state, wisdom, temperance, courage."

"Aye," says he.

"An' the virtue that's competin' wi' the ithers is justice?"

"Exactly."

"Let's look at the question in a different wey: Is it no the rulers in a state that ye wid gie the job o' decidin' lawsuits?"

"Certainly."

"An' are lawsuits decided on any ither grunds than that a fella shouldnae tak somethin' that belangs tae somebody else, nor be robbed o' somethin' that's his ain?"

"Aye; that's the main idea."

"An' that's a just principle?"

"Aye."

"Then bi this wey o' thinkin' as well, justice will be acceptit as havin' an' daein' whit is richtly a man's ain, an' belangs tae him?"

"Very true."

"Think noo, an' tell me if ye agree wi' me or no. Imagine a carpenter bein' daein' a cobbler's job, or a cobbler bein' a carpenter; an' suppose them tae swap their tools or their duties, or the same person tae be daein' the wark o' baith, or whitsoever the change micht be; dae ye think that ony great harm would come tae the state?"

"No much."

"But whan the cobbler or ony ither fella that nature designed tae be a tradesman, gettin' his heid turned bi wealth or strength or the number o' his followers, or ony sic advantage, tries tae force his wey intae the class o' warriors, or a warrior intae that o' lawmakers an' guardians, for whilk he's unfit, an' either taks the tools or the duties o' the ither; or whan yin man is a tradesman, a lawmaker, an' a warrior aw at the same time, then I think ye'll agree wi' me in sayin' that this swappin' an' this meddlin' o' yin wi' anither is the ruination o' the state."

"Most true."

"Seein' then," says I, "that there are three separate classes, ony meddlin' o' yin wi' anither, or the chynge o' yin intae anither, is the greatest harm tae the state, an' can be maist fairly cried injustice?"

"Exactly.

An' the greatest harm that somebody could dae tae their ain city would be cried injustice bi ye?"

"Certainly."

"Then this is injustice; an' on the ither haund whan the tradesman, the helper, an' the guardian each dae their ain wark, that's justice, an' it'll mak the city juist."

"I agree wi' ye."

"We winnae be ower-sure o' oorsels jist yet," says I; "but if, whan we pit it tae the test, this idea o' justice turns oot tae be true in the single person as well as in the state, then there'll be nae mair room for doobt; if it disnae work oot, we'll need tae hae a new enquiry. First let's finish the auld investigation, that we began, as ye mind, wi' the impression that, if we could look at justice on a bigger scale first, it wid be less difficult tae see it in the single person. That bigger example seemed tae be the state, an' sae we biggit as guid a yin as we could, kennin' fine that in a guid state justice would be foond. Let the discovery that we made noo be applee'd tae the individual - if they agree, we'll be happy; or, if there's a difference in the individual, we'll come back tae the state an' hae anither try o' the theory. The rubbin' o' the twa thegither micht juist spark a licht that will mak justice shine oot, an' the vision that we see then we'll haud on tae in oor souls."

"That maks sense; let's dae as ye say."

I gaed on tae ask: "Whin twa things, a bigger yin an' a wee yin, are cried bi the same name, are they like or different juist acause they're cried the same?"

"Like," says he.

"The just fella then, if we juist look at the idea o' justice, will be like the just state?"

"He will."

"An' a state was thocht bi us tae be just whan the three classes in the state aa did their ain wark; an' it wis an aa considered tae be temperate an' brave an' wise acause o' certain ither feelings an' qualities o' thir same classes?"

"True," says he.

"An' sae o' the individual; we can assume that he has the same three principles in his ain soul that are foond in the state; an' he can be rightly described in the same terms, because he's affected in the same wey?"

"Certainly," says he.

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