Book 2, Part 2

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Socrates - Adeimantus (cont)

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Now, as Glaucon requested o' ye, please leave oot reputations; because unless ye tak away fae each o' them their true reputation and stick on a fake yin, we'll just say that ye arenae praisin justice, but the way it looks on the surface. We'll think that ye're just tellin us tae keep oor injustice hidden, and that ye really agree wi Thrasymachus that justice is somethin that benefits other folk and is in the stronger person's interests, and that injustice is a man's ain personal profit and benefit, even though it harms the weaker folk. Noo, since ye have agreed that justice is one o' the top kind o' goods that are desired for the results they bring, but far more for their ain sake - like sicht or hearin or knowledge or health, or ony ither real and natural good and no just a made-up yin - then in yer praise o' justice, I wid ask ye tae focus on just this yin point: I mean the essential good and evil that justice and injustice cause in the fowk that possess them. Let other folk praise justice and criticise injustice, blawin up the rewards and honours o' the yin and slagging off the other; that's a way o' arguin that I'm willin' tae put up wi if it comes fae them. But fae you, wha has spent his whole life thinkin aboot this question, unless I hear somethin different comin oot yer ain mouth, I expect somethin better. An awricht then, I say it again, no only prove tae us that justice is better than injustice, but show us what effect they each hae on the person who possesses them, that maks the yin a guid thing and the ither an evil thing, whether it's seen or unseen by gods and men.

Socrates: (tae Adeimantus)

I've aye admired the cleverness o' Glaucon and you, Adeimantus, but hearin these words fair delighted me, and I says: "Sons o' a braw faither, that wisnae a bad start tae the elegiac verses that the chiel who admired Glaucon made aboot ye efter ye distinguished yersels at the Battle o' Megara:

"'Sons o' Ariston,' he sang, 'divine offspring o' an illustrious hero.'"

The term fits richtly, because there's somethin truly divine in bein able tae argue for the superiority o' injustice the wey ye huv, and still no bein convinced by yer ain arguments. And I dae believe that ye are no convinced - this I gather frae yer general character, for if I haed only judged ye based on yer speeches, I wid hae been suspicious. But now, the mair confidence I hae in ye, the bigger the difficulty is for me in whit tae say. Because I'm stuck atween twa things; on the yin hand I feel that I cannae dae it; and my inability is made clear tae me by the fact that ye were no happy wi the answer I gied Thrasymachus, provin, as I thocht, the superiority that justice has ower injustice. An yet I cannae refuse tae help, as lang as I hae breath and speech; I wid be feart that it wid be wicked o' me tae be present when justice is bein bad-mouthed and no lift a hand tae defend it. An therefore, it's best I gie whit help I can.

Glaucon and the rest pleaded wi me aw they could no tae let the question drop, but tae continue the investigation. They wanted tae get tae the truth, first, aboot the nature o' justice and injustice, and secondly, aboot whit wis better ower aw. I tellt them, honestly whit I thocht, that the enquiry wid be serious and wid need really guid een. Sae seein then, I says, that we arenae exactly geniuses, I think we wid be better aff adoptin a method that I can explain wi an illustration: suppose a short-sichtit person wis asked by some yin tae read wee letters fae a distance; and it occurred tae some yin else that they micht be foond in anither place that wis bigger and whaur the letters were bigger - if they were the same and he could read the bigger letters first, and then gang on tae the wee ones - this wid hae been thocht a real stroke o' luck.

Adeimantus: Very true, but hoo does this story apply tae oor enquiry?

Aye, alright then, I'll tell ye. Justice, the thing we're lookin' intae, can be spoken aboot in twa ways, as ye ken: sometimes it's the virtue o' a single person, and sometimes it's the virtue o' a whole nation.

That's true, he said.

And isnae a nation a lot bigger than a single person?

It is that.

Then, in the bigger thing, there's likely tae be mair justice, and it'll be easier tae see. So, what I propose is this: let's look intae the nature o' justice and injustice, first as they appear in a nation, and then as they appear in a single person, startin wi' the bigger thing and comparin' them as we go.

That's a braw idea, he said.

And if we imagine a nation bein' built from scratch, we micht see hoo justice and injustice work within it as it grows.

Aye, that could weel be.

When the nation's finished, there might be a better chance o' findin' what we're lookin' for.

Aye, a much better chance.

But should we try and build one ourselves? I said; because if we dae, as I'm inclined tae think, it'll be a right hefty task. So think carefully aboot it.

I've thought aboot it, said Adeimantus, and I'm keen for ye tae get on wi' it.

A nation comes aboot, as I understand it, because folk need things; nae yin o' us is self-sufficient, we aw hae lots o' wants. Can ye imagine any other reason a nation would start?

There cannae be.

Then, since we hae lots o' wants, and it takes a lot o' fowk tae provide them, yin person gets a helper for yin thing and another for something else; and when these partners and helpers aa gather together in the same place, the group o' inhabitants is called a nation.

True, he said.

And they trade wi' each other, and yin gives and another takes, thinkin' the trade will benefit them baith.

Very true.

Then, I said, let's begin and build a nation in oor minds; though the true creator is necessity, wha is the mither o' oor inventions.

Of course, he replied.

Now the first and biggest necessity is food, which is whit keeps us alive and existin'.

Absolutely.

The second is a place tae stay, and the third is claes and the like.

True.

And noo, let's see hoo oor city will be able tae meet this big demand: We can imagine that yin man is a farmer, another a builder, some yin else a weaver - should we add a shoemaker tae them, or maybe some ither body wha provides things oor bodies need?

Aye, absolutely.

The bare minimum for a nation wid only need four or five men.

Clearly.

And hoo wid they go about it? Wid each yin bring the results o' their labour tae a kinda jumble in the middle? - for example, the individual farmer producin' enough food for fower fowk, and workin fower times as lang and as hard as he needs tae in order tae provide food that he'll gie tae ithers as well as himsel; or wid he hae nothin' tae dae wi' ithers and no bother producin' for them, but instead provide for himsel a fowerth o' the food in a fowerth o' the time, and in the rest o' his time - the ither three-fowerths - be busy makin' a hoose or a coat or a pair o' shuin, havin' nae partnership wi' ithers, but supplyin' himsel wi' aw his ain needs?

Adeimantus thocht that the guy should focus on just producin' food and no try and make everything himsel.

That wid likely be the better wey, I said, and when I hear ye say that, it minds me masel that we're no aw the same; there's different types o' fowk amang us that are suited tae different jobs.

Very true.

And will ye get a better job done when the worker has a lot o' different jobs, or when he just has yin?

When he has only yin.

An aa, there can be nae doot that a job is spoiled if it's no done at the richt time?

No doot aboot it.

For work disnae wait 'round until the person doin' the job is free; instead, the worker maun get on wi' what they're doin', and mak the job their top priority.

That's true.

An if that's the case, then it maks sense that aw things are produced mair abundantly, easily, and o' a better quality when yin person does yin thing that comes naturally tae them and does it at the richt time, and leaves ither things tae specialists.

Undoubtedly.

Then we'll need mair nor fower fowk; because the farmer willnae mak his own plough or mattock, or ither tools for farmin', if they're gaun tae be any good. Neither will the builder mak his ain tools - and he needs a lot o' them as well; and in the same wey, the weaver and the shoemaker.

True enough.

Then carpenters, and blacksmiths, and a wheen o' ither craftsfolk, will become part o' oor wee nation, that's already startin' tae grow?

True.

Yet even if we add cattle herders, sheepherders, and ither fowk who look after herds, so that oor farmers hae oxen tae plough wi', and builders as well as farmers can hae draught animals, and leatherworkers and weavers can hae fleece and hides, oor nation will still no be that big.

That's true; but it widnae be a very wee nation if it contains aw these fowk.

Then, on top o' that, there's the location o' the city - it's near impossible tae find a place whaur nothin' needs tae be imported.

Impossible.

Then there must be another group o' fowk wha will bring the things we need from anither city?

But if the trader goes empty-handed, havin' nothin' that the fowk he's gaun tae see wid want, wha wid gie him what he needs? He wid come back wi' nothin'.

That's for sure.

An so, what they produce at hame maunnae only be enough for themsels, but it must be enough, in baith quantity and quality, tae satisfy the fowk wha can provide them wi' the things they need.

Very true.

Then we'll need mair farmers and mair craftsfolk?

We will that.

And that's no even mentionin' the fowk who import and export things, wha are called merchants?

Aye, right.

Then we will need merchants?

We will.

And if goods are tae be carried ower the sea, we'll also need skilled sailors, and a fair few of them?

Aye, a fair few.

Then, back within the city, hoo will they swap the things they produce? Remember, gettin' these things exchanged wi' each other wis yin o' the main reasons we pit them aw together and made a nation in the first place.

Clearly they'll need tae buy and sell.

Then they'll need a marketplace, and a form o' money for tradin'.

Certainly.

Suppose noo that a farmer or a craftsperson brings something they've made tae the marketplace, and they arrive at a time when there's nae yin there tae swap somethin' wi' them - should they juist leave their job and sit idle in the marketplace?

Not at all; they'll find fowk there wha, seein' the problem, tak on the job o' bein' salespeople. In well-run nations, these are usually the folk wha are the weakest and so arenae much use for anythin' else; their job is tae be in the marketplace, and tae gie money in exchange for goods tae fowk who want tae sell, and tae take money from fowk who want tae buy.

This need, then, creates a class o' shopkeepers in oor nation. Isnae "shopkeeper" the term that's used for fowk who sit in the marketplace buyin' and sellin', while the ones who wander fae yin city tae anither are called merchants?

Aye, that's right, he said.

And there's another class o' servants, wha arenae really clever enough for company; but they still hae plenty o' bodily strength for work, which they sell, and are called, if I'm not mistaken, hired hands, "hire" bein' the name that's given tae the price o' their labour.

True.

Then hired hands will also be part o' oor population?

Aye.

And noo, Adeimantus, is oor nation fully grown and finished?

I think so.

Then, whaur is justice, and whaur is injustice, and in whilk part o' the State did they grow up?

Probably in the way these citizens deal wi' each ither. I cannae imagine that they're mair likely tae be foond anywhaur else.

I wid say you're richt in yer suggestion, I said; we'd best think the hale thing through carefully, and no shy away fae the enquiry.

Let's consider, first o' aw, whit their way o' life will be, noo that we've established them like this. Will they no grow corn, and mak wine, and claes, and shuin, and big hooses for themsels? And when they're settled in their hooses, they'll work, in simmer, usually stripped and barefoot, but in winter they'll be well-clad and hae shuin on. They'll eat barley-meal and flour made frae wheat, bakin' and kneadin' them, makin' fancy cakes and loaves; they'll serve these up on a mat made o' reeds or on clean leaves, lyin' back on beds filled wi' yew or myrtle branches. And them and their weans will feast, drinkin' the wine they've made, wearin' garlands on their heids, and singin' hymns o' praise tae the gods, aw chattin' happily wi' each ither. And they'll tak care that their families dinnae grow any bigger than they can afford, keepin' an eye oot for poverty or war.

Socrates - GLAUCON

But, Glaucon says, jumpin' in, you havenae given them anythin' extra for their meal.

True, I said, I forgot; o' course they must hae somethin' extra - salt, and olives, and cheese, and they'll boil roots and herbs like the kind o' things fowk in the countryside mak; for dessert we'll gie them figs, peas, and beans; and they'll roast myrtle berries and acorns at the fire, drinkin' in moderation. And wi' a diet like that, ye can expect them tae live in peace and health intae a braw auld age, and leave a similar life tae their weans after them.

Aye, Socrates, he says, and if ye were giein' food tae a city full o' pigs, how else would ye feed the beasts?

But what dae ye want, Glaucon? I replied.

Well, he says, you should gie them the usual comforts o' life. Fowk who are meant to be comfortable are uised tae lyin' on sofas, and eatin' their meals aff tables, and they should hae sauces and sweet things in the modern style.

Aye, I said, now I understand: the question ye want me tae consider is, no only how a State is created, but how a luxurious State is created; and maybe there's nae harm in this, for in such a State we'll be mair likely tae see hoo justice and injustice arise. In my opinion the real and healthy way o' rinnin' a State is the yin I've described. But if ye want tae see a State that's in a fever heat, I hae nae objection. For I suspect that a lot o' fowk willnae be satisfied wi' the simpler wey o' life. They'll be wantin' tae add sofas, and tables, and other bits o' furniture; an aa dainties, and perfumes, and incense, and prostitutes, and cakes, aw these things no just in yin type, but every variety; we wid need tae go beyond the necessities that I wis talkin' aboot at first, like hooses, and claes, and shuin: we'd need painters and embroiderers, and hae tae get gold and ivory and aa sorts o' materials.

True, he said.

Then we wid need tae make oor borders bigger; because the original healthy State isnae enough any mair. Noo the city will need tae fill up and swell wi' a whole lot o' jobs that nobody really needs; like a whole tribe o' hunters and actors, o' whae yin big group deals wi' shapes and colours; another group will be the fowk involved wi' music - poets and their assistants like storytellers, instrumentalists, dancers, organisers; an aa fowk who mak different kinds o' things, includin' fancy dress for weemen. And we'll need mair servants. Will we no also need teachers, and wet and dry nurses, maidservants and barbers, as well as bakers and cooks; and swineherds, too, wha we didnae need and therefore didnae hae a place in the first version o' oor State, but are needed noo? We cannae forget them: and there will be animals o' aw sorts o' kinds, if the fowk are gaun tae eat them.

Aye, absolutely.

And livin' this wey we'll need a heck o' a lot mair doctors than before?

A whole lot mair.

And the land that wis enough tae support the fowk who first lived there will be ower wee noo, and no be enough any mair?

That's spot on.

Then we'll need a bit o' oor neighbours' land for grazin' animals and growin' crops, and they'll want a bit o' oors, if they're like us and go beyond what they actually need and try tae gather up as much wealth as they possibly can?

Socrates, that's bound tae happen.

And so we'll gang tae war, Glaucon. Will we no?

Most definitely, he said.

Then withoot decidin' yet whether war is a guid thing or a bad thing, this much we can say for sure: we've just discovered that war comes aboot for the same reasons as almost aw the problems in nations, baith private and public.

There's no doot aboot that.

And oor nation will need tae grow even bigger again; and this time it'll need tae be a whole army that can go oot and fight the invaders for everything we have, as well as for the things and fowk we were talkin' aboot afore.

Why's that? he said; can they no defend themsels?

No, I said; no if we were richt aboot the important idea that we aw agreed on when we were makin' the nation: the idea, as ye'll mind, wis that yin person cannae dae a lot o' different jobs weel.

True enough, he said.

But isnae war an art as well?

Certainly.

And an art that needs as much attention as makin' shuin?

Absolutely.

And the shoemaker wisnae allowed by us tae be a farmer, or a weaver, or a builder - aw at the same time - so that we could get oor shuin made weel; instead, him and every other worker wis given yin job that they were naturally suited for, and they were supposed tae keep doin' that job aw their lives and no anything else; they widnae be allowed tae slack off, and then they would become a good worker. Noo, there's nothin' more important than a soldier bein' really good at their job. But is war an art that's so easy tae learn that a man can be a soldier who is also a farmer, or a shoemaker, or some other craftsperson; even though nobody in the world would be a good dice or draughts player if they just picked up the game as a wee hobby, and hadn't been practicin' it since they were wee ones and nothin' else?

Nae amount o' tools will make a man a skilled worker, or a master o' defence, or be o' any use tae him if he hasnae learned hoo tae handle them, and has never put any effort intae learnin' aboot them. So hoo can someone who picks up a shield or some other weapon become a good fighter all in a day, whether they're fightin' wi' heavy armour or any other kind o' troops?

Aye, he said, the tools that would teach men hoo tae use them properly would be priceless.

And the mair important the duties o' the guardian, I said, the more time, and skill, and art, and effort will be needed by them?

There's no doot aboot that, he replied.

Will they no also need a natural talent for their job?

Certainly.

Then it will be oor duty to try and pick oot the fowk who are naturally suited for the task o' guardin' the city?

It will be.

And pickin' them oot willnae be a piece o' cake, I said; but we gottae be brave and try oor best.

We must absolutely.

Isnae a noble young laddie unco like a weel-bred dug whan it comes tae keepin' guard and watchin'?

What dae ye mean?

I mean that baith o' them need tae be sharp at seein', and fast enough tae catch up wi' the enemy ance they see them; and strong as well, in case they need tae fecht them ance they've caught them.

Aw these qualities, he said, will definitely be needed by them.

Weel, and yer guardian maun be brave if he's gaun tae fight weel?

Certainly.

And is he likely tae be brave if he has nae spirit, whether that's a horse or dug or ony ither beast? Hinnae ye ever noticed hoo invincible and unstoppable spirit is, and hoo havin' it can mak the soul o' any creature absolutely fearless and impossible tae tame?

I have noticed that.

Then noo we've got a clear idea o' the physical qualities that are needed in the guardian.

True.

And an aa o' the mental ones; his soul is tae be fu' o' spirit?

Aye.

But arenae these spirited types likely tae be wild wi' each ither, and wi' everybody else?

That's a difficulty that's no easy tae overcome, he replied.

Whereas, I said, they should be dangerous tae their enemies, and gentle wi' their friends; if no, they'll destroy themsels withoot waitin' for their enemies tae destroy them.

True, he said.

Whit is tae be done then? I said; hoo are we gaun tae find a gentle nature that has aa that great spirit as well, for the yin is the opposite o' the ither?

True.

He willnae be a good guardian wha's missin' either o' these twa qualities; and yet gettin' them baith thegither seems impossible; and so we gottae assume that bein' a good guardian is impossible.

I'm feart what ye say is true, he replied.

Here, feelin' perplexed, I began tae think ower whit had come afore. My friend, I said, nae wonder that we're in a muddle; for we've lost sicht o' the image that we had in front o' us.

What dae ye mean? he said.

I mean tae say that there actually are folk who are gifted wi' these opposite qualities.

And whaur dae ye find them?

A lot o' animals gie us examples o' them; oor friend the dug is a really guid yin: ye ken that weel-bred dugs are perfectly gentle wi' their familiar fowk and acquaintances, and the complete opposite wi' strangers.

Aye, I ken that.

Then there's nothin' impossible or oot o' the natural order o' things in us findin' a guardian who has a similar set o' qualities?

Certainly not.

Widnae someone who's suited tae bein' a guardian, need tae hae the qualities o' a philosopher on top o' havin' a spirited nature?

I dinnae quite understand what ye mean.

The trait that I'm talkin' aboot, I said, can also be seen in the dug, and it's quite remarkable in the beast.

Whit trait?

Well, a dug, whenever it sees a stranger, gets angry; but whan it sees someone it kens, it welcomes them, even though the yin has never done it any harm, nor the ither any good. Did this never strike ye as curious?

The matter never struck me afore; but I completely recognise the truth o' yer remark.

And surely this instinct o' the dug is very charmın'; - yer dug is a true philosopher.

Whit wey?

Weel, because he can only tell the difference atween a friend's face and an enemy's face by kennin' them or no kennin' them. And disnae a beast need tae be a lover o' learnin' if it figures oot whit it likes and disnae like based on whit it kens and whit it disnae ken?

Absolutely.

And isnae the love o' learnin' the same as the love o' wisdom, which is philosophy?

They're the same thing, he said.

And could we no say confidently aboot a fella as well, that someone wha's likely tae be gentle wi' their friends and fowk they ken maun, by nature, be a lover o' wisdom and learnin'?

That's somethin' we can safely say for sure.

Then someone wha's gaun tae be a real guid and noble guardian o' the State will need tae hae philosophy and spirit and speed and strength aw put thegither?

There's nae doot aboot that.

Then we've found the fowk we were lookin' for; and noo that we've found them, hoo are they tae be brocht up and educated? Isnae this the enquiry that we can expect will shed licht on the bigger enquiry which is oor ultimate goal - How dae justice and injustice grow up in States? We dinnae want tae either leave oot somethin' important or drag the argument oot for an unreasonable amount o' time.

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