Plato's Republic

Beuk V

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Socrates - GLAUCON - ADEIMANTUS

That's the wey o a guid an richt Citie or State, an the guid an richt man is cast in the same mould; an if this is richt then every ither wey is wrang; an the evil is yin that affects no juist the orderin o the State, but an aa the regulation o the individual saul, an is shown in fower forms.

Whit are they? he said.

I wis gaun tae tell ye the order in whilk the fower evil forms seemed tae me tae succeed yin anither, whin Polemarchus, wha wis sittin a wee bitty awa, juist past Adeimantus, stairtit whisperin tae him: steekin oot his haund, he grippit the upper part o his coat bi the shouther, an drew him towards him, leanin forrit himsel sae as tae be gey close an sayin somethin in his lug, o whit I juist caucht the wirds, 'Shall we lat him aff, or whit wey sal we dae?'

Certainly no, said Adeimantus, raisin his voice.

Wha is it, I said, wha ye are refusin tae lat aff?

Youse, he said.

I said again, Why am I especially no tae be lat aff?

Aw, he said, we think that ye are lazy, an mean tae cheat us oot o a hale chapter whilk is a verra important pairt o the story; an ye fancy that we will nae notice yer airy wey o gaun on; as if it wis self-evident tae everybody, that in the maitter o weemen an bairns 'freends hae aw things in common.'

An wisnae I richt, Adeimantus?

Aye, he said; but whit is richt in this particular case, like everything else, needs tae be explained; for commonness can be o mony kinds. Please, therefore, tae say whit wey o commonness ye mean. We've been lang expectin that ye wid tell us somethin aboot the faimily life o yer ceetizens --how they will bring bairns intae the warld, an rear them whan they hae arrived, an, in general, whit is the nature o this commonness o weemen an bairns-for we are o the opinion that the richt or wrang management o sic matters will hae a great an paramount influence on the State for guid or evil. An noo, since the question is still undetermined, an ye are takkin in haund anither State, we hae resolved, as ye heard, nae tae lat ye go until ye gíe an accoont o aw this.

Tae that resolution, said Glaucon, ye mey regaird me as sayin Agreed.

Socrates - ADEIMANTUS - GLAUCON - THRASYMACHUS

An withoot mair ado, said Thrasymachus, ye mey conseider us aw tae be equally agreed.

I said, Ye ken nae whit ye are daein in thus assailin me: Whit an argument are ye raisin aboot the State! Juist as I thocht that I had finished, an wis juist ower glaid that I had laid this question tae sleep, an wis reflectin hoo fortunate I wis in yer acceptance o whit I then said, ye ask me tae begin again at the verra foondation, ignorant o whit a hornet's nest o wirds ye are stirrin. Noo I foresaw this gatherin trouble, an avoided it.

For whit purpose dae ye think we've come hither, said Thrasymachus, tae leuk for gowd, or tae hear bletherin?

Aye, but bletherin shuid hae a limit.

Aye, Socrates, said Glaucon, an the hale o life is the only limit whilk wise fowk alloo tae hearin sic blethers. But dinnae fash yersel aboot us; tak heart yersel an answer the question in yer ain wey: Whit wey o commonness o weemen an bairns is this that's gaun tae prevail amang oor guardians? An hoo sal we manage the time atween birth an teachin, whilk seems tae need the maist care? Tell us hoo thir things will be.

Aye, my feckless friend, but the answer is the opposite o easy; mony mair doobts arise aboot this than aboot oor previous jaloused conclusions. For it can be dooted gin whit is said is practical; an leukit at in anither wey, whether the plan, gin it wis ever so practical, wad be for the best is an aa dooted. Hence I feel a reluctance tae approach the subject, lest oor yearnin, my dear friend, shuid turn oot tae be juist a dream anerly.

Fear nae, he replied, for yer audience winnae be hard on ye; they're no sceptical or unfriendly.

I said: My guid friend, I presume that ye mean tae gie me hairt bi thir wirds.

Aye, he said.

Then let me tell ye that you are daein juist the opposite; the hairt that ye offer wad hae been aw very weel hid I kent masel whit I wis bletherin aboot: tae declare the trueth aboot matters o heich interest whilk a man honours an loves amang wise men wha love him need occasion nae fear or falterin in his mind; but tae carry on an argument whan ye are yersel juist a hesitatin inquirer, whilk is my condition, is a dangerous an slippery thing; an the danger is no that I shall be lichtit at (o whilk the fear wad be bairnlike), but that I shall miss the trueth whaur I hae maist need tae be sure o ma feetin, an drag my friends efter me in my faur. An I pray Nemesis no tae visit upon me the wirds whilk I am gaun tae spik. For I dae believe that tae be an involuntary manslayer is a less crime than tae be a deceiver aboot beauty or guidness or jestice in the maitter o laws. An that is a risk whilk I wid rather rin amang enemies than amang friends, an tharefore ye dae weel tae gie me hairt.

Glaucon lichtit an said: Weel then, Socrates, in case you an yer argument dae us ony serious skaith ye shall be cleared beforehand o the guilt an winnae be held tae be a deceiver; tak hairt then an speak.

Weel, I said, the law says that whan a man is cleared he is free fae guilt, an whit hauds at law may haud in an argument.

Then whit wey sud ye fash yersel?

Weel, I answered, I suppose I maun gang back ower ma steps an say whit I micht hae said afore in the richt place. The men's pairt is ower the noo, an noo juist eneuch comes the turn o the weemen. O them I will gang on tae speak, an the mair readily sin I am bidden by ye.

For men born an brocht up like oor ceetizens, the only wey, in my opinion, o arrivin at a richt conclusion aboot the havin an usin o weemen an bairns is tae follae the gait on whilk we stairtit oot owerly, whin we said that the men wid be the guardians an watchdogs o the herd.

True.

Let's furthirmore suppose the birth an teachin o oor weemen tae be subjectit tae siccar or nearlins siccar regulations; then we will see whether the result greeth wi oor design.

Whit dae ye mean?

Whit I mean can be pitten intae the form o a question, I said: Are dowgs dividit intae his an hers, or dae they baith shair equally in huntin an in keepin watch an in the ither duties o dowgs? or dae we entrust tae the males the hale an exclusive care o the flocks, while we leave the females at hame, unner the idea that the bearin an sucklin their pups is wark eneuch for them?

Naw, he said, they shair alike; the only differ atween them is that the males are stronger an the females waker.

But can ye uiss different beasts for the same purpose, unless they are bred an fed in the same wey?

Ye cannae.

Then, gif weemen are tae hae the same duties as men, they maun hae the same nurturin an education?

Aye.

The education whilk wis assigned tae the men wis music an gymnastics.  Aye.

Then weemen maun be taucht music an gymnastics an aa the airt o war, whilk they maun practise like the men?

That's the wey it seems, I suppose.

I sud rather expect, I said, that several o oor proposals, if they are cairrit oot, bein unusual, micht appear ridiculous.

Nae doot aboot it.

Aye, an the maist ridiculous thing o aw will be the sicht o weemen nakit in the palaestra, exercisin wi the men, especially whan they are nae langer young; they certainly winnae be a sicht o beauty, any mair nor the enthusiastic auld men wha in spite o wrunkles an ugliness continue tae haunt the gymnasia.

Aye, nae doot, he said: accordins tae present notions the proposal wad be thocht ridiculous.

But then, I said, as we hae determined tae speak oor minds, we maunna feart the jeists o the wits whilk will be directit against this sort o innovation; hoo they will haver aboot weemen's achievements baith in music an gymnastics, an abune aw aboot their wearin airmour an ridin upon horseback!

Very true, he replied.

Yet havin begun we maun gang forrit tae the rough places o the law; at the same time pleadin wi thir gentlemen for yin time in their life tae be serious. No that lang syne, as we sal remind them, the Hellenes were o the opinion, whilk is still generally gotten amang the barbarians, that the sicht o a nakit man wis ridiculous an improper; an whan first the Cretans an then the Lacedaemonians brocht in the custom, the wits o that day micht equally hae ridiculed the innovation.

Nae doot.

But whan experience shawed that tae lat aw things be uncovered wis far better nor tae coor them up, an the ludicrous effect tae the ootward ee vanished afore the better principle whilk reason asserted, then the man wis seen tae be a fule wha steers the shafts o his ridicule at ony ither sicht but that o folly an vice, or seriously inclines tae wecht the bonnie bi ony ither standard but that o the guid.

Very true, he replied.

First, then, whether the question is tae be pitten in jest or in earnest, let us come tae an understaundin aboot the nature o woman: Is she capable o sharin either wholly or pairtly in the actions o men, or no ava? An is the airt o war yin o thir airts in whilk she can or cannae shair? That will be the best wey o beginnin the enquiry, an will likely lead tae the fairest conclusion.

That will be much the best wey.

Shall we tak the ither side first an begin bi arguin against oorsels; in this wey the adversary's position winnae be undefended.

Why no? he said.

Then let's pit a speech intae the mooths o oor antagonists. They will say: 'Socrates an Glaucon, nae enemy needs tae convict ye, for you yersels, at the very first foondation o the State, admittit the principle that everybody wis tae dae the yin wark suited tae their ain nature.' An certainly, if I am nae mistaen, sic an admission wis made by us. 'An dinnae the natures o men an weemen differ verra much indeed?' An we shall answer: Of course they dae. Then we shall be speirt, 'Shuidnae the tasks allouit tae men an tae weemen be different, an sic as are agreeable tae their different natures?' Certainly they shuid. 'But if sae, hae ye no fallen intae a serious inconsistency in sayin that men an weemen, whaes natures are sae entirely different, ocht tae perform the same actions?' --Whit defence will ye mak for us, my guid Sir, against ony yin wha offers thir objections?

That's nae easy question tae answer whan speirt suddenly; an I shall an I dae beg o ye tae draw oot the case on oor side.

Thir are the objections, Glaucon, an there are mony ithers o a like kind, whilk I foresaw lang syne; they made me feart an reluctant tae tak in haund ony law aboot the havin an nurturin o weemen an bairns.

By Zeus, he said, the problem tae be solved is anythin but easy.

Why aye, I said, but the fact is that whan a man is oot o his depth, whether he has fallen intae a wee swimmin bath or intae the middle o the ocean, he haes tae swim aw the same.

Very true.

An maunna we swim an try tae reach the shore: we will hope that Arion's dolphin or some ither miraculous help may save us?

I suppose so, he said.

Weel then, let's see if ony wey o escape can be fund. We acceptit -- did we no? that different natures ocht tae hae different pursuits, an that men's an weemen's natures are different. An noo whit are we sayin? -- that different natures ocht tae hae the same pursuits, -- this is the inconsistency whilk is charged upon us.

Precisly.

Verily, Glaucon, I said, glorious is the pouer o the airt o contradiction!

Whit wey dae ye say sae?

Because I think that mony a man falls intae the practice again his will. Whin he thinks that he is raisonin he is juist arguin, juist because he cannae define an divide, an sae ken whit he is speakin aboot; an he will pursue a merely verbal opposition in the spirit o contention an no o fair discussion.

Aye, he replied, sic is very often the case; but whit wey dis that hae tae dae wi us an oor argument?

A wheen; for there is certainly a danger o oor gettin unintentionally intae a verbal opposition.

In whit wey?

Why, we valiantly an fechtinly insist upon the verbal truth, that different natures ocht tae hae different pursuits, but we niver considered at aw whit wis the meanin o sameness or difference o nature, or why we distinguished them whan we allouit different pursuits tae different natures an the same tae the same natures.

Why, no, he said, that wis niver considered by us.

I said: Suppose that by wey o illustration we were tae spier the question whether there is not an opposition in nature atween men withoot hair an hairy men; an if this is admittit by us, then, if men withoot hair are shoomakers, we shuid forbid the hairy men tae be shoomakers, an the ither wey roon?

That wid be a blether, he said.

Aye, I said, a blether; an why? because we niver meant whan we biggit the State, that the opposition o natures shuid rax tae every difference, but juist tae thir differences whilk affectit the pursuit in whilk the individual is engaged; we shuid hae argued, for example, that a medicinar an yin wha is in mind a medicinar can be said tae hae the same nature.

True.

Whareas the medicinar an the carpenter hae different natures?

Certainly.

An if, I said, the male an female sex seem tae differ in their fitness for ony airt or pursuit, we shuid say that sic pursuit or airt ocht tae be allouit tae yin or the ither o them; but if the difference consists juist in weemen bearin an men begettin bairns, this disnae amoont tae a pruif that a woman differs frae a man in respect o the sort o teachin she shuid receive; an we sall therefore continue tae maintain that oor guardians an their wives ocht tae hae the same pursuits.

Very true, he said.

Neist, we sall spier oor opponent hoo, in reference tae ony o the pursuits or airts o civic life, the nature o a woman differs frae that o a man?

That will be fair eneuch.

An perhaps he, like yersel, will answer that tae gie a sufficient answer on the spot is no easy; but efter a wee thocht there is nae difficulty.

Aye, perhaps.

Suppose then that we invite him tae accompany us in the argument, an then we may hope tae shaw him that there is naething peculiar in the mak-up o weemen whilk wid affect them in the rinnin o the State.

By aw means.

Lat's say tae him: Come noo, an we will spier ye a question: -- whan ye spoke o a nature talented or no talented in ony wey, did ye mean tae say that yin man will learn a thing easily, anither wi difficulty; a wee bit o learnin will lead the yin tae discover a hale lot; whitras the ither, efter a wheen study an application, nae sooner learns than he forgets; or again, did ye mean, that the yin has a body whilk is a guid servant tae his mind, while the body o the ither is a hindrance tae him?- widnae thir be the sort o differences whilk distinguish the naturally talented man frae the yin wha is no talented?

Nae yin will deny that.

An can ye mind ony pursuit o mankind in whilk the male sex disnae hae aw thir gifts an qualities in a heicher degree nor the female? Need I fash wi speakin o the airt o weavin, an the management o pancakes an jams, in whilk womankind dis really appear tae be braw, an in whilk for her tae be beatin by a man is o aw things the maist ridiculous?

You are quite richt, he replied, in maintainin the general inferiority o the female sex: although mony weemen are in mony things superior to mony men, yet on the hale whit ye say is true.

An if sae, my friend, I said, there is nae special faculty o administration in a state whilk a woman has because she is a woman, or whilk a man has bi virtue o his sex, but the gifts o nature are alike spread oot in baith; aw the pursuits o men are the pursuits o weemen an aa, but in aw o them a woman is inferior tae a man.

Very true.

Then are we tae pit aa oor laws on men an nane o them on weemen?

That will never dae.

Yin woman has a gift o curin, anither nocht; yin is a sangster, an anither has nae muisic in her nature?

Very true.

An yin woman has a knack for gymnastick an military exercises, an anither is unwarlike an hates gymnastick?

Certainly.

An yin woman is a philosopher, an anither is an enemy o philosophy; yin has spirit, an anither is withoot spirit?

That is also true.

Then yin woman will hae the temperament o a guardian, an anither nocht. Wisnae the choosin o the male guardians determined by differences o this kind?

Aye.

Men an weemen alike possess the qualities whilk mak a guardian; they differ only in their comparative strangth or weaknes.

Obviously.

An thir weemen wha hae sic qualities are tae be pickit oot as the companions an colleagues o men wha hae similar qualities an wha they resemble in capability an in character?

Very true.

An sudnae the same natures hae the same pursuits?

They sud.

Then, as we were sayin afore, there is naething unnatural in assignin muisic an gymnastick tae the wives o the guardians --tae that point we come roon again.

Certainly nocht.

The law whilk we then made wis agreeable tae nature, an therefore no an impossibility or a wee fantasy; an the contrair practice, whilk prevails at present, is in reality a breakin o nature's laws.

That seems tae be true.

We hid tae consider, first, whether oor proposals were possible, an secondly whether they were the maist beneficial?

Aye.

An the possibility has been acceptit?

Aye.

The verra great benefit has next tae be proven?

Quite so.

Ye will admit that the same teachin whilk maks a man a guid guardian will mak a woman a guid guardian; for their original nature is the same?

Aye.

I wid like tae spier ye a question.

What is it?

Wid ye say that aw men are equal in excellence, or is yin man better nor anither?

The latter.

An in the commonweel whilk we were foondin dae ye think the guardians wha hae been brocht up on oor model system tae be mair perfect men, or the shoomakers whais education has been shoomakin?

Whit a ridiculous question!

Ye hae answered me, I replied: Weel, an may we no further say that oor guardians are the best o oor ceetizens?

By far the best.

An winnae their wives be the best weemen?

Aye, by far the best.

An can there be onything better for the interests o the State than that the men an weemen o a State shuid be as guid as possible?

There can be naething better.

An this is whit the airts o muisic an gymnastics, whan present in sic a wey as we hae describit, will bring aboot?

Certainly.

Then we hae made a law that is no only possible but in the highest degree beneficial tae the State?

True.

Then let the wives o oor guardians tak aff their claes, for their virtue will be their robe, an let them share in the toils o war an the defence o their kintra; only in the allottin o duties the lichtle ane are tae be gien tae the weemen, wha are the weaker creatures, but in ither respects their wark is tae be the same. An as for the man wha lauchs at nakit weemen exercisin their bodies for the best o reasons, in his lauchin he is puin

A fruit o uncoont wisdom, an he himsel is ignorant o whit he is lauchin at, or whit he is aboot; for that is, an aye will be, the best o sayins, That the uisfu is the noble an the harmful is the base.

Very true.

Here, then, is yin difficulty in oor law aboot weemen, whilk we can say that we hae noo escaped; the wave hasnae swallowt us up alive for decidin that the guardians o either sex shuid hae aw their pursuits in common; tae the uisfuiness an aa tae the possibility o this arrangement the greein o the argument wi itsel bears witness.

Aye, that wis a michty wave whilk ye hae escaped.

Aye, I said, but a greater is comin; you will ken o this whan ye see the next.

Gae on; lat me see.

The law, I said, whilk is the sequel o this an o aw that has come afore, is tae the follaein effect, --'that the wives o oor guardians are tae be common, an their bairn are tae be common, and nae parent is tae ken his ain child, nor any child his parent.'

Aye, he said, that is a far greater wave than the ither; an the possibility as well as the uisfuiness o sic a law are far mair questionable.

I dinnae think, I said, that there can be ony argument aboot the verra great uisfuiness o havin wives an bairn in common; the possibility is a hale different maitter, an will be very much argued aboot.

I think that a wheen doubts can be raisit aboot baith o them.

Ye imply that the twa questions maun be gruppit thegither, I replied. Noo I meant that ye sud allou the uisfuiness; an in this wey, as I thocht, I sud escape fae yin o them, an then there wid juist be the possibility left.

But that wee trick is spottit, an therefore ye will please tae gie a defence o baith.

Weel, I said, I submit tae my fate. Yet gie me a wee favour: lat me feast my mind wi the dream as daydreamers are in the habit o feastin themsels whan they are walkin alane; for afore they hae discovered ony means o affectin their wisses --that is a maitter that niver troubles them --they wid rather no tire themsels by thinkin aboot possibilities; but assumin that whit they desire is already grantit tae them, they proceed wi their plan, an delight in detailin whit they mean tae dae whan their wish has come true --that is a wey whilk they hae o no doin muckle guid tae an ability whilk wis niver verra guid tae begin wi. Noo I mysel am beginnin tae lose hert, an I wid like, wi yer permission, tae pass ower the question o possibility at present. Assumin therefore the possibility o the proposal, I shall noo proceed tae enquire hoo the rulers will carry oot thir arrangements, an I shall demonstrate that oor plan, if implementit, will be o the greatest benefit tae the State an tae the guardians. First o aw, then, if ye hae nae objection, I will try wi yer help tae consider the advantages o the measure; an efterhaund the question o possibility.

I hae nae objection; proceed.

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