Book 5, Part 2

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Socrates - ADEIMANTUS - GLAUCON - THRASYMACHUS

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First, I think that if oor rulers an their helpers are tae be worthy o the name whilk they bear, there maun be a wullin-ness tae obey in the yin an the pouer o command in the ither; the guardians maun themsels obey the laws, an they maun aa emulate the spirit o them in ony details whilk are entrusted tae their care.

That's richt, he said.

You, I said, wha are their lawgiver, havin selectit the men, will noo select the weemen an gie them tae them; --they maun be as far as possible o like natures wi them; an they maun bide in common hooses an meet at common meals. Nane o them will hae onything speciallie his or her ain; they will be thegither, an will be brocht up thegither, an will practise gymnastic exercises thegither. An sae they will be drawn by a necessity o their natures tae hae relations wi each ither -- necessity isnae ower strang a word, I think?

Aye, he said; --necessity, no geometrical, but anither sort o necessity whilk lovers ken, an whilk is far mair convincing an constrainin tae the maist o mankind.

True, I said; an this, Glaucon, like aw the rest, maun proceed efter an orderly fashion; in a city o the blessed, uncontrolled behaviour is an unholy thing whilk the rulers will forbid.

Aye, he said, an it sudnae be allouit.

Then clearly the next thing will be tae mak marriage haly in the heichest degree, an whit is maist beneficial will be haudit haly?

Exactly.

An hoo can marriages be made maist beneficial? -- that is a question whilk I pit tae ye, because I see in yer hoose dugs for huntin, an o the mair noble sort o birds no a fiew. Noo, I beseech ye, dae tell me, hae ye ever keepit an ee on their pairin an breedin?

In whit particulars?

Weel, in the first place, although they are aw o a guid sort, arenae some better nor ithers?

True.

An dae ye breed frae them aw indifferently, or dae ye tak tent tae breed frae the best anerly?

Frae the best.

An dae ye tak the auldest or the youngest, or juist thae o ripe age?

I pick anerly thae o ripe age.

An if care wisnae taen in the breedin, yer dugs an birds wid greatly waursen?

Certainly.

An the same o hoorses an beasts in general?

Undoubtedly.

Guid heavens! my dear friend, I said, whit a wheen skill will oor rulers need if the same principle hauds true o the human species!

Certainly, the same principle hauds true; but why dis this involve ony special skill?

Because, I said, oor rulers will often hae tae wirk on the hale body o the fowk wi medicines. Noo ye ken that whan patients dinnae require medicines, but hae only tae be pit unner a regimen, the poorer sort o medicinar is haudit tae be guid eneuch; but whan medicine haes tae be gien, then the doctor sud be mair o a man.

That is quite true, he said; but whit are ye ettlin at?

I mean, I replied, that oor rulers will fin a considerable dose o falsity an deceit necessary for the guid o their subjects: we were sayin that the use o aw thir things regairdit as medicines micht be o advantage.

An we were very richt.

An this lawful uiss o them seems likely tae be aften needed in the regulations o marriages an bairns.

Hoo sae?

Weel, I said, the principle has been laid doon already that the best o either sex sud be yokit wi the best as aft as possible, an the inferior wi the inferior, as seldom as possible; an that they sud breed the offspring o the yin sort o union, but no o the ither, if the flock is tae be mainteened in first-rate condition. Noo thir gangins on maun be a secret that only the rulers ken, or there will be a further danger o oor herd, as the guardians may be caaed, breakin oot intae rebellion.

Very true.

Hid we no better appoint certain festivals at whilk we will bring thegither the brides an bridegrooms, an sacrifices will be offered an suitable sangs o marriage componed by oor poets: the nummer o waddins is a maitter whilk maun be left tae the discretion o the rulers, whase aim will be tae preserve the average o fowk? There are mony ither things whilk they will hae tae consider, sic as the effects o wars an diseases an ony similar things, in order as far as this is possible tae prevent the State fae becomin either ower muckle or ower wee.

Certainly, he replied.

We shall hae tae invent some braw kind o lots whilk the less worthy may draw on ilk time o oor bringin them thegither, an then they will accuse their ain ill-luck an no the rulers.

Tae be sure, he said.

An I think that oor braver an better youth, besides their ither honours an rewards, micht hae greater opportunities o relations wi weemen gien them; their bravery will be a reason, an sic fathers sud hae as mony sons as possible.

True.

An the proper officers, whether male or female or baith, for offices are tae be held by weemen as weel as by men --

Aye --

The proper officers will tak the offspring o the guid parents tae the enclosure or field, an there they will pit them wi certain nurses wha bide in a separate area; but the offspring o the inferior ones, or o the better whan they happen tae be deformed, will be put away in some mysterious, unknowin place, as they sud be.

Aye, he said, that maun be dune if the breed o the guardians is tae be kept pure.

They will provide for their upbringin, an will bring the mithers tae the enclosure whan they are full o milk, takin the greatest possible care that nae mither recognises her own wean; an ither wet-nurses may be hired if mair are required. Care will aa be taen that the process o sucklin shanna be ower lang; an the mithers will hae nae gettin up at nicht or ither bother, but will gie ower aw this sort o thing tae the nurses an attendants.

Ye suppose the wives o oor guardians tae hae a braw easy time o it whan they are havin bairns.

Weel, said I, an sae they sud. Lat us, houiver, proceed wi oor plan. We were sayin that the parents sud be in the prime o life?

Very true.

An whit is the prime o life? May it no be defined as a period o aboot twenty years in a wumman's life, an thirty in a man's?

Whilk years dae ye mean tae include?

A wumman, I said, at twenty years o age may begin tae bear weans tae the State, an continue tae bear them until forty; a man may begin at five-an-twenty, whan he has passed the point at whilk the pulse o life beats quickest, an continue tae gie bairns until he be fifty-five.

Certainly, he said, baith in men an weemen thir years are the prime o baith physical an intellectual vigour.

Any one abune or belaw the prescribed ages wha taks pairt in the public waddins shall be said tae hae dune an unholy an unrighteous thing; the child o whilk he is the faither, if it sneaks intae life, will hae been conceived under circumstances very unlike the sacrifices an prayers, whilk at each weddin priestesses an priest an the hale city will offer, that the new generation may be better an mair uisfu than their guid an uisfu parents, whereas his wean will be the offspring o darkness an strange desire.

Very true, he replied.

An the same law will apply tae any one o thae within the prescribed age wha forms a connection wi any woman in the prime o life withoot the sanction o the rulers; for we shall say that he is raisin up a bastard tae the State, uncertified an unconsecrated.

Very true, he replied.

This applies, houiver, only tae thae wha are within the specified age: efter that we alloo them tae roam at will, except that a man maynae marry his dochter or his dochter's dochter, or his mither or his mither's mither; an weemen, on the ither haund, are forbydden fae marryin their sons or fathers, or son's son or father's father, an sae on in either direction. An we grant aw this, accoortin the permission wi strict orders tae prevent any embryo whilk may come intae bein frae seein the licht; an if any force a wey tae birth, the parents maun unnerstaun that the offspring o sic an union canna be mainteened, an sort it oot accordingly.

That also, he said, is a reasonable proposition. But hoo will they ken wha are fathers and dochters, an sae on?

They will niver ken. The wey will be this: --datin fae the day o the waddin, the bridegroom wha wis then married will cry aw the male weans wha are born in the seventh an tenth month efterwards his sons, an the female weans his dochters, an they will cry him father, an he will cry their weans his grandchildren, an they will cry the elder generation grandfathers an grandmothers. Aw wha were begotten at the time whan their fathers an mithers cam thegither will be called their brithers an sisters, an thir, as I wis sayin, will be forbydden tae inter-marry. This, houiver, is no tae be unnerstuid as an absolute prohibition o the marriage o brithers an sisters; if the lot favours them, an they receive the sanction o the Pythian oracle, the law will alloo them.

Quite richt, he replied.

Sic is the scheme, Glaucon, accordin tae whilk the guardians o oor State are tae hae their wives an families in common. An noo ye wid hae the argument shaw that this commonality is consistent wi the rest o oor poleety, an aa that naething can be better --wid ye no?

Yes, certainly.

Shall we try tae find a common grund by askin oorsels whit ocht tae be the chief aim o the lawgiver in makin laws an in the organisation o a State, --whit is the greatest guid, an whit is the greatest evil, an then consider whether oor previous description has the stamp o the guid or o the evil?

By all means.

Can there be any greater evil than disharmony and distraction and plurality whaur unity ocht tae reign? or any greater guid than the bond o unity?

There cannae.

An there is unity whaur there is commonality o pleasures an pains --whaur aw the ceetizens are glaid or grieved on the same occasions o joy an sorrow?

No doot.

Aye; an whaur there is nae common but only private feelin a State is disorganised when ye hae yin hauf o the warld triumphin an the ither plunged in grief at the same events happenin tae the city or the ceetizens?

Certainly.

Sic differences commonly originate in a disagreement aboot the uiss o the terms 'mine' and 'not mine,' 'his' and 'not his.'

Exactly so.

An isnae that the best-ordered State in whilk the greatest nummer o fowk apply the terms 'mine' an 'not mine' in the same wey tae the same thing?

Quite true.

Or that again whilk maist closely resembles the condition o the individual --as in the body, whan bit a finger o yin o us is hurt, the hale frame, drawn towards the saul as a centre an formin yin kinrick unner the rulin pouer tharein, feels the hurt an sympathises aw thegither wi the pairt affectit, an we say that the man has a pain in his finger; an the same expression is uised aboot ony ither pairt o the body, whilk has a feelin o pain at sufferin or o pleasure at the alleviation o sufferin.

Very true, he replied; an I agree wi ye that in the best-ordered State there is the nearest approach tae this common feelin whilk ye describe.

Then whan ony yin o the ceetizens experiences ony guid or evil, the hale State will mak his case their ain, an will either rejoice or sorrow wi him?

Aye, he said, that is whit will happen in a weel-ordered State.

It will noo be time, I said, for us tae return tae oor State an see whether this or some ither form is maist in accoordance wi thir fundamental principles.

Very guid.

Our State like every ither has rulers an subjects?

True.

Aw o whaim will cry yin anither ceetizens?

Of course.

But is there nae ither name whilk fowk gie tae their rulers in ither States?

Generally they cry them maisters, but in democratic States they simply cry them rulers.

An in oor State whit ither name besides that o ceetizens dae the fowk gie the rulers?

They are cried saviours an helpers, he replied.

An whit dae the rulers cry the fowk?

Their maintainers an foster-fathers.

An whit dae they cry them in ither States?

Slaves.

An whit dae the rulers cry yin anither in ither States?

Fellow-rulers.

An whit in ours?

Fellow-gaurdians.

Did ye ever ken an example in ony ither State o a ruler wha wid speak o yin o his colleagues as his friend an o anither as no bein his friend?

Aye, very aften.

An the friend he regairds an describes as yin in wha he has an interest, an the ither as a stranger in wha he has nae interest?

Exactly.

But wid ony o yer gairdins think or speak o ony ither gaird as a stranger?

Certainly he widnae; for every yin whaim they meet will be regairdit bi them either as a brither or sister, or faither or mither, or son or dochter, or as the wean or parent o thae wha are thus connectit wi him.

Weel said, I said; but lat me ask ye yince mair: Shall they be a faimily in name anerly; or shall they in aw their actions be true tae the name? For example, in the uiss o the word 'faither,' wid the care o a faither be implied an the filial reverence an duty an obedience tae him whilk the law commands; an is the violator o thir duties tae be regairdit as an impious an unrighteous person wha is no likely tae receive muckle guid either at the haunds o God or o man? Are thir tae be or no tae be the strains whilk the weans will hear repeated in their lugs bi aw the ceetizens aboot thae wha are lat on tae them tae be their parents an the rest o their kinfaulks?

Thir, he said, an nane ither; for whit can be mair ridiculous than for them tae utter the names o faimily ties wi the lips anerly an no tae act in the spirit o them?

Then in oor ceety the language o harmony an concord will be mair aften heard than in ony ither. As I wis describin afore, whan ony yin is weel or ill, the universal word will be 'wi me it is weel' or 'it is ill.'

Maist true.

An agreeably tae this mode o thinkin an speakin, were we no sayin that they will hae their pleasures an pains in common?

Aye, an sae they will.

An they will hae a common interest in the same thing whilk they will alike cry 'my ain,' an haein this common interest they will hae a common feelin o pleasure an pain?

Aye, far mair so than in ither States.

An the reason o this, ower an abune the general constitution o the State, will be that the gairdins will hae a commonality o weemen an weans?

That will be the chief reason.

An this unity o feelin we admittit tae be the greatest guid, as wis implied in oor ain comparison o a weel-ordered State tae the relation o the body an the members, whan affectit bi pleasure or pain?

That we acknowledged, an very rightly.

Then the commonality o wives an weans amang oor ceetizens is clearly the source o the greatest guid tae the State?

Certainly.

An this agrees wi the ither principle whilk we were affirmïn, --that the gairdins were no tae hae hooses or lands or ony ither property; their pay wis tae be their food, whilk they were tae receive frae the ither ceetizens, an they were tae hae nae private expenses; for we intendit them tae preserve their true character o gairdins.

Richt, he replied.

Baith the commonality o property an the commonality o families, as I am sayin, tend tae mak them mair truly gairdins; they will no tear the ceety in pieces bi differin aboot 'mine' an 'not mine;' ilk man draggin ony acquisition whilk he has made intae a separate hoose o his ain, whaur he has a separate wife an weans an private pleasures an pains; but aw will be affectit as far as may be bi the same pleasures an pains because they are aw o yin opinion aboot whit is near an dear tae them, an therefore they aw tend towards a common end.

Certainly, he replied.

An as they hae naething but their ain bodies whilk they can cry their ain, suits an complaints will hae nae existence amang them; they will be delivered frae aw thae quarrels o whilk siller or weans or relations are the occasion.

Of course they will.

Naither will trials for stooshin or insult ever be likely tae occur amang them. For that equals shoud defend themsels against equals we shall maintain tae be honourable an richt; we shall mak the protection o the person a maitter o necessity.

That's guid, he said.

Aye; an there is a further guid in the law; viz. that if a man has a quarrel wi anither he will satisfy his resentment then an there, an no proceed tae mair dangerous lenths.

Certainly.

Tae the elder shall be assigned the duty o rulin an chastisin the younger.

Clearly.

Nor can there be a doot that the younger will no strike or dae ony ither violence tae an elder, unless the magistrates command him; nor will he slight him in ony wey. For there are twa gairdins, shame an fear, michty tae prevent him: shame, whilk maks men haud back frae layin haunds on thae wha are tae them in the relation o parents; fear, that the skaithed yin will be succoured bi the ithers wha are his brithers, sons, ane wi fathers.

That's true, he replied.

Then in every wey the laws will help the ceetizens tae keep the peace wi yin anither?

Aye, there will be nae lack o peace.

An as the gairdins will niver quarrel amang themsels there will be nae danger o the rest o the ceety bein dividit either against them or against yin anither.

None whitsoever.

I hardly like even tae mention the wee meannesses o whilk they will be rid, for they are beneath notice: sic, for example, as the flattery o the rich bi the puir, an aw the pains an pangs whilk fowk experience in bringin up a faimily, an in findin siller tae buy necessaries for their hoosehold, borrowin an then refusin tae pey back, gettin whit wey they can, an giein the siller intae the haunds o weemen an slaves tae keep --the mony evils o sae mony kinds whilk fowk suffer in this wey are mean enough an obvious enough, an no worth speakin o.

Aye, he said, a man has nae need o sicht tae see that.

An frae aw thir evils they will be delivered, an their life will be blessed as the life o Olympic victors an yet mair blessed.

Hoo sae?

The Olympic victor, I said, is deemed happy in receivin anerly a pairt o the blessedness whilk is secured tae oor ceetizens, wha hae won a mair glorious victory an hae a mair complete mainteenance at the public cost. For the victory whilk they hae won is the salvation o the hale State; an the croun wi whilk they an their weans are crooned is the fulness o aw that life needs; they receive rewards frae the haunds o their kintra while livin, an efter daith hae an honourable burial.

Aye, he said, an glorious rewards they are.

Dae ye mind, I said, hoo in the coorse o the previous discussion some yin wha shall be nameless accused us o makin oor gairdins unhappy --they hid naething an micht hae possessed aw things-tae wha we replied that, if an occasion offered, we micht perhaps hereafter consider this question, but that, as at present advised, we wid mak oor gairdins truly gairdins, an that we were fashionin the State wi a view tae the greatest happiness, no o ony particular class, but o the hale weel?

Yes, I mind.

An whit dae ye say, noo that the life o oor protectors is proven tae be far better an nobler than that o Olympic victors --is the life o shoemakers, or ony ither artisans, or o husbandmen, tae be compared wi it?

Certainly no.

At the same time I ocht here tae repeat whit I hae said elsewhere, that if ony o oor gairdins shall try tae be happy in sic a wey that he will cease tae be a gaird, an isnae content wi this safe an harmonious life, whilk, in oor judgement, is o aw lives the best, but infatuatit bi some youthful conceit o happiness whilk gets up intae his heid shall seek tae appropriate the hale State tae himsel, then he will hae tae learn hoo wisely Hesiod spoke, whan he said, 'half is mair nor the hale.'

If he were tae consult me, I sud say tae him: Bide whaur ye are, whan ye hae the offer o sic a life.

Ye agree then, I said, that men an weemen are tae hae a common wey o life sic as we hae describit --common education, common weans; an they are tae watch ower the ceetizens in common whether bidein in the ceety or gaun oot tae war; they are tae keep watch thegither, an tae hunt thegither like dowgs; an aye an in aw things, as far as they are able, weemen are tae share wi the men? An in sae doin they will dae whit is best, an will noa violate, but preserve the natural relation o the sexes.

I agree wi ye, he replied.

The enquiry, I said, has yet tae be made, whether sic a commonality be foond possible --as amang ither animals, sae an aa amang men --an if possible, in whit wey possible?

Ye hae anticipated the question whilk I wis aboot tae suggest.

There is nae difficulty, I said, in seein hoo war will be carried on bi them.

Hoo?

Weel, o course they will gang on expeditions thegither; an will tak wi them ony o their weans wha are strang eneuch, that, efter the manner o the airtisans' wean, they may leuk on at the wirk whilk they will hae tae dae whan they are grown up; an besides leukin on they will hae tae help an be o uiss in war, an tae wait upon their faither an mithers. Did ye never observe in the airts hoo the potters' boys leuk on an help, lang afore they touch the wheel?

Aye, I hae.

An shall potters be mair careful in educatin their weans an in giein them the opportunity o seein an practisin their duties than oor gairdins will be?

The idea is ridiculous, he said.

There is aa the effect on the parents, wi wha, as wi ither animals, the presence o their young anes will be the greatest incentive tae valour.

That is quite true, Socrates; an yet if they are defeatit, whilk may often happen in war, hoo great the danger is! the weans will be lost as weel as their parents, an the State will niver recover.

True, I said; but wid ye niver alloo them tae rin ony risk?

I am far frae sayin that.

Weel, but if they are ever tae rin a risk sud they no dae so on some occasion whan, if they escape disaster, they will be the better for it?

Clearly.

Whether the future sodgers dae or dae no see war in the days o their youth is a verra important maitter, for the sake o whilk some risk may fairly be incurred.

Aye, very important.

This then maun be oor first step, --tae mak oor weans spectators o war; but we maun aa contrive that they shall be secured against danger; then aw will be weel.

True.

Their parents may be supposed no tae be blind tae the risks o war, but tae ken, as far as human foresight can, whit expeditions are safe an whit dangerous?

That may be assumed.

An they will tak them on the safe expeditions an be cautious aboot the dangerous anes?

True.

An they will place them under the command o experienced veterans wha will be their leaders an teachers?

Very properly.

Still, the dangers o war cannae aye be foreseen; there is a guid deal o chance aboot them?

True.

Then against sic chancers the weans maun be at ance furnished wi wings, in order that in the oor o need they may flee awa an escape.

Whit dae ye mean? he said.

I mean that we maun pit them on naigs in their earliest youth, an whan they hae learnt tae ride, tak them on horseback tae see war: the naigs maun be spunky an warlik, but the maist tractable an yet the swiftest that can be had. In this wey they will get an excellent view o whit is efterhaund tae be their ain business; an if there is danger they hae only tae follae their elder leaders an escape.

I believe that ye are richt, he said.

Niest, as tae war; whit are tae be the relations o yer sodgers tae yin anither an tae their enemies? I sud be inclined tae propose that the sodger wha leaves his rank or throws awa his arms, or is guilty o ony ither act o cowardliness, sud be degrudit intae the rank o a husbandman or airtisan. Whit dae ye think?

By all means, I sud say.

An he wha allouws himsel tae be taen prisoner may as weel be made a present o tae his enemies; he is their lawful prey, an lat them dae whit they like wi him.

Certainly.

But the hero wha has distinguished himsel, whit shall be done tae him? In the first place, he shall receive honour in the army frae his youthful comrades; every yin o them in succession shall croon him. Whit dae ye say?

I approve.

An whit dae ye say tae his receivin the richt haund o fellowship?

Tae that too, I agree.

But ye will hardly agree tae ma next proposal.

Whit is yer proposal?

That he sud kiss an be kissed bi them.

Maist certainly, an I sud be disposed tae go forder, an say: Let nae yin wha he has a mind tae kiss refuse tae be kissed bi him while the expedition lasts. So that if there be a lover in the army, whether his love be youth or maiden, he may be mair eager tae win the prize o valour.

Capital, I said. That the brave man is tae hae mair wives than ithers has been already determined: an he is tae hae first choices in sic maiters mair than ithers, in order that he may hae as many weans as possible?

Agreed.

Again, there is anither manner in whilk, accordin tae Homer, brave youths sud be honoured; for he tells hoo Ajax, efter he had distinguished himsel in battle, wis rewarded wi lang chines, whilk seems tae be a compliment appropriate tae a hero in the flower o his age, bein nae only a tribute o honour but aa a very strengthenin thing.

Maist true, he said.

Then in this, I said, Homer shall be oor teacher; an we ower, at sacrifices an on the like occasions, will honour the brave accordin tae the measure o their valour, whether men or weemen, wi hymns an thae ither distinctions whilk we were mentionin; an aa wi seats o precedence, an meats an full cwps; an in honourin them, we shall be at the same time trainin them.

That, he replied, is excellent.

Aye, I said; an whan a man dies gloriously in war shall we not say, in the first place, that he is o the gowden race?

Aye, tae be sure.

Nae, hae we no the authority o Hesiod for affirmïn that whan they are deid

They are holy angels upon the earth, weyvers o guid, turners awa o ill, the guardians o fowk wha can speak?

Aye; an we accept his authority.

We maun learn aff the god hoo we are tae order the buryin o divine an heroic fowk, an whit is tae be their special mark o honour an we maun dae as he bids?

By all means.

An in ages tae come we will reverence them an kneel afore their burial places as at the graves o heroes. An no only them but ony wha are deemed uncommonly guid, whether they die frae age, or in ony ither wey, shall be allooed the same honours.

That's very richt, he said.

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